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Author Topic: Help/advice Gold "posy" ring 17/8c  (Read 7502 times)
peeve
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« on: March 23, 2016, 07:48:13 PM »

Hi guys,

I found a posy ring on land in Pontyclun last year and reported it to Cardiff museum. Ive had the report back and its dated 1650-1750.

Ok question - the museum will not say that it is "at least 300yrs old" only that it favours an earlier date to the ring but cannot be sure. Like I said I found the ring in 2014 and declared it in 2015. This leaves a 35yr window where the ring may not be treasure trove. In the next sentence the museum have said they wish to purchase he ring. My worry is that the coroner will side with the museum and I will not get my ring back. So does the coroner need to be 100% sure it was over 300yr old when found in order to be declared treasure or will they allow a 35% error margin??

I'm not looking to sell this ring, id want to keep it and pass it on. I'm never going to find one agian and I know the valuation committee will under value it.

HELP/ADVICE please
Cheers
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handyman [Alan}
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 07:59:29 PM »

" and I know the valuation committee will under value it"

I,m intrigued as to how can you come to this conclusion when you haven't received a valuation of the ring?

as to the other points you raise, the due process is very clearly laid out, you just have to allow the process to proceed and then raise questions as and when the opportunities arise.

An item can be treasure trove under 300 years old .. the following is an extract from the treasure act, with the link provided

https://finds.org.uk/treasure/advice/summary

"Any object that would previously have been treasure trove, but does not fall within the specific categories given above. Only objects that are less than 300 years old, that are made substantially of gold or silver, that have been deliberately hidden with the intention of recovery and whose owners or heirs are unknown will come into this category"

it will be down to the process to decide if it was deliberately hidden or not.
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Mike
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 08:00:27 PM »

well if it cant be proved to be at least 300yrs old the coroner will probably discount it as treasure trove , if it ever gets ti inquest that is , the museum might want to purchase it independantly due to it being a 'local' find , you are under no obligation to sell it to them , good luck mate , hope u get to keep it




















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The Ferret
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 08:07:02 PM »

If they cannot prove its date it will be returned.... Wink
If you would like it valued for insurance purposes then contact these guys
 http://www.wartski.com/

Don't bother with timeline they will fob you off
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DEADLOCK
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2016, 09:03:45 PM »

I'm in the same boat as well exact same scenario so I emailed my flo and asked him that i wasn't happy to lose it to a museum he basically told me it belongs to the museum now. am awaiting the coroner verdict.

" Hi Alun,

Thought you’d like to know that Mark Redknap at the National Museum has finally written a report on your gold ring for the Coroner. You might have received a copy yourself by now but in summary, Mark has identified some other rings which are similar and concludes that from the style of the inscription it dates to the 17th century."

 

You will be informed when a date for the inquest is set and will be able to attend if you want to! I hope all is well with you.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 09:17:41 PM by DEADLOCK » Logged

Resurgam
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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2016, 08:35:14 AM »

Jeez, what a minefield!
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Landyman
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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2016, 10:00:45 AM »

" and I know the valuation committee will under value it"

I,m intrigued as to how can you come to this conclusion when you haven't received a valuation of the ring?


I have heard it said many times by people that have had items valued by the committee that they were under valued.
It proved true when I got stung by them .
Some people now think twice before reporting anything.
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probono
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« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2016, 12:16:43 PM »

Hi Peeve.

I think I know about this ring - are you the chap who found a papal bulla on the same land previously?

As to whether or not the ring is treasure trove - that's what the coroner's inquest is about - he decides (not the museum, although they of course make a recommendation) whether it falls under the Act or not.

If he decides it does, then the museum will buy it  (it is Cardiff after all) unless they feel the valuation is way off the mark (i.e seriously overpriced). if he decides it isn't treasure, and you don't want to sell it to the museum, then you don't have to, although - unless you have a specifically written agreement with the landowner stating otherwise, you should come to some agreement with the landowner (normally 50/50 split).

If you want to challenge the Treasure Valuation Committee valuation, or BM pre-valuation you need to get it valued by someone who has held / seen it - that could be you, but you would have to have supporting evidence, which is usually taken to be recent sales (at auction, but without buyer's commission) of similar items, which is easier for some things than others.

Some of my concerns on valuations are where items don't come up for auction regularly - for my hoard for instance there were two coins that were only the second known examples of their particular mules and so the valuations were based on their relative values to normal coins when they came up for sale in the 1970s - and we all know that that's a guess, but probably not a good one anymore.

Hope this helps.

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peeve
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2016, 08:30:36 PM »

Hi Guys,

Im still here and ive had the coroners report..... not good news for me, it has been dec as treasure..

Things i find fishy/odd -

1)"It is my opinion that as an object which has at least 10% by weight of precious metal, but a degree of uncertainty as to whether it is definitely is at least 300 years old (i.e. pre 1715 in date). The ring may be treasure if the balance of probability favours an early date with in range. The likely date range would appear to be C 1650-1750. Pontypridd or Cynon valley museums are interested in aquiring this item"

Taken from quote from the report from the mesum. OK, so even the museum has said a degree of uncertainty as to it being over 300yrs old. Without even favouring an earlier date there is a 35yr window where it may not be treause, thats a 35% chance its not!!! Surly this item should not have been dec treasure??? Can a coronors decision be over turned?

2) Provisional valuation has only valued it at £1200. Even by me doing a very quick "google" search for post-medieval gold finger-ring (5.3g), the cheapest i can find is more than double that. They use a site called TimeLine Auctions to get their values from. From what i can see this isnt a very well know (well at least id never heard of it, please correct me if wrong) auction site where items go cheap. Surly to get a fair valuation any specialist/antique shop/online shop should at least be concidered?? such as wear-the-past, sanda lipton or berganza LTD.

OK sorry for the rant. Please, Please help and in all honesty if it had been valued at £2/3k+ and the musuems said they couldnt afford it, i would have loaned it to them to display for free. Im never going to sell it but it would be too valuable for me to keep in my house.

p.s. to the guy that asked if i found the papal bulla, not me but i think it is the same land from what ive been told.
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Radnor Bandit (Ian)
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2016, 08:50:18 PM »

Also to add, dont hold your breath waiting for a quick result. I have a fragment of ring found and reported in 2013 thats only just gone to coroner, apparently we only have 1 that covers south and mid wales and he's loath to do treasure cases. From what I gather he sat on 2 years worth of applications then lumped them in all together.
Make sure you keep the landowner fully informed about the case and make sure they understand that the treasure process can be very slow.
At least with my last treasure case the farmer was sent copes of all correspondence. It wasnt so in the past.
Good luck with the case.
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peeve
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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2016, 09:22:39 PM »

Cheers Radnor bandit,

Ive had all the documentation from the british musuem also. The TVC are meeting on the 25th Jan 2017. I was told to expect 2yrs, from the FLO at Cardiff and its gone through rather quick.
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probono
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« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2016, 11:37:44 PM »

Hi Peeve

it was me that asked about the Papal Bulla - I detect on that land myself (every so often) as I've known the landowner pretty much all my life.

He'd told me that it was the same chap who found the ring and the papal bulla (which he showed me).

As to valuations, the wording is 'a willing seller and a willing buyer' - as to what that means, they generally take an auction price for an item, not a commercial price. It's like the coin catalogues - they give you prices dealers charge, not what they buy them at. At least by going for an auction (and Time Lines are pretty well known, and personally I don't buy off them because I think they are expensive, so there's a different perspective) you are getting a 'live' price for something. I understand that you might not be happy with that, but I can pretty much guarantee that (and I know you don't want to) should you try and sell it to a dealer, they're unlikely to give you £1200 for it, but they'd want to charge more than that for it (it's to do with their overheads and profit, whatever you think of their margins).

Hope it helps, anyway.

Now you have a coroner's report - could you upload a picture of it? It would be great to see it Smiley
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