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Author Topic: How much do you know?  (Read 17893 times)
carling2
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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2013, 02:57:52 PM »

can I see 1 to please  Grin,,,,on another note on this topic if the land is very close to a 9thc {settlement} why do we presume that 9thc finds and later should be in that particular spot?? im sure most of us know that any medium sized settlement would only require 20 -30 acres for food production as well as livestock and that 30? acres would have changed position at some time ,,maybe that's another explanation of this missing time period of this particular field.
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2013, 03:01:04 PM »

Good point Paul Wink
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Pon
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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2013, 04:24:11 PM »

Nice little bit of Samian ware thrown in for good measure Geoff  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2013, 06:06:06 PM »

A interesting post.....Geoff have you paid a visit to my detecting land? Grin the finds are pretty much the same. Did you find any hammered coinage going back before the 14century?  The photos are showing iron age pottery what may indicate a settlement,  some good roman occupation with high status samian pottery (villa maybe) also the land has been worked with the ox, for crops, also with the thimbles as they used them at harvest time, to protect the ends of there fingers. You always get the button losses, and as you said before by muck spreading Grin
The milled coinage losses through working the land, old track ways, paths and the general losses.   
     
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2013, 08:46:53 PM »

I`ll have a wild stab in the dark at this  Tongue

The period of non occupation would be in my humble opinion, the land being woodland during that time.

then the period of clearing and then farming the land.

Just a thought  Undecided Undecided Undecided
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NCMD
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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2013, 09:44:39 PM »

here you go guys ..

http://www.medievalartefacts.co.uk/buttons.htm
http://medievaltailor.com/demonstrations/buttons/
http://cottesimple.com/buttons/14th-century-buttons/
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cardiffian
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« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2013, 09:57:22 PM »

I am with Herbie and think part of the answer lies with a shortage of water supply. Does a changing water course (or wells and springs) have a part to play in the answer? That could account for the village forming 500 metres away. The original roman occupation may have been near a river crossing. In the intervening years after the romans had upped sticks the course of the river changed. The later village may have then sprung up around a more strategic crossing of the river.

Along came the 14th century and the field saw some habitation again. Stone work from the original roman buildings was robbed out and used to build a number of humble dwellings with the occupants eking out a meagre existence through subsistence farming. The dwellings may have existed up until the 1700's or 1800's when Land Enclosure came about. The land may have then reverted back to pasture and become part of a big estate. The big estates employed a lot of labour, which adds up to lots of buttons and copper coinage among the casual losses. If now permanent pasture, most of the earlier metalwork may have settled too deep.

Most likely all of my scenario is completely off track, and I am barking up the wrong tree. I will be interested in the outcome because I have a very similar field to the one in question.
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Chef Geoff
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2013, 04:52:42 AM »




So tell me Alan, just how many of these cloth medieval buttons do you find in a days detecting lol. The first link is Tudor .......that's post-medieval.
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legio11augustus
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2013, 08:27:54 PM »

well may be the reason for absence from 4th century until the 14th..well the romans left  but they built defences and barriers for good drainage ,upon leaving these barriers fell into disrepair the mercians invaded the angles then the danes  but if it was boggy land  ,it wouldnt of seen much population  maybe in this particular field .(jumping on the bandwagon that you said east england as a clue)then farmers drained the land turning it into arable farm land from 14th century onwards...............ok i have a vivid imagination  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2013, 11:14:48 AM »

Some brilliant answers and it's nice to see that many people are thinking of the bigger picture when it comes to their stes.

Well first my apologies for the slightly arrogant nature of the question but I hoped to attract some newer members but hopefully just reading the answers may have helped kick start their imagination to see their solitary button in context of their other finds or even the lack of.
As said, there are some great answers, each of which could be equally valid on certain sites and yes it was slightly unfair as I have personal knowledge of my land so have an advantage but I think all answers have pointed out the relevant information that the finds and lack of offer.

We can see that our site has been "used" since 250 BC though the scant traces probably indicate that we are "close too" and not on a habitation site
Whether it has been in continual use through to our next 1st century finds is beyond the scope of a metal detector and this is where recording is so important as any future planning for the land will have a heads up on what may lie underneath.
We can be pretty confident that our site was in use right through the Roman period as the finds from apparently disjointed centuries are in keeping with Western Britain, unless your in large urban areas or those used by the military.

We now hit that mysterious period which is now unfashionably called the Dark Ages and while the name came about because of recorded information it could have been so called by it's lack of finds, once again more in the west than the east. One Saxon coin found in Wales is equal to the Staffordshire hoard as far as historical relevance is concerned.
All answers pertaining to this period could be equally viable and without a time machine or major excavation we simply can't tell from detecting alone but we do know that some degree of community must have existed by the 9th century to warrant the building of a church but Herbie was spot on here with the "Social and urban decline"
This dearth of finds continues right through to the 14th century with the finding of our first thimble, a similar find represents the next 3 centuries and this is our clue to land use.
As Neil points out the dreaded sheep have taken over, most of us will grimace remembering having to learn about the inclosures acts at school, these being in the 18th and 19th centuries but few realise these were only some of the acts that had started as far back as 1235 with a number of subsequent rulings and repeals covering the intervening centuries.
Thimbles where used obviously for sewing (Dale I'd not heard about the harvest idea?) and it's generally thought that "wool sacks" are the items being sewn.
As stated one shepherd could be the only human on a thousand acres of grazing land compared to 8 people a year it took to sow and harvest every acre of arable and so potential losses are that much less, plus you don't muck spread pasture land? and this brings us to the agricultural revolution!
Dale mentions the spreading of human waist which is how the majority of buttons and pottery get into the soil and probably a fare few coins from all periods have found their way into the ground by the same route (the coin finds from both Roman sewage systems and medieval garderobes show that coin losses were quite common, which in my mind is strange as they they didn't have pockets?)
Also the ox shoe does reinforce the theory of ploughing of the land as does the coins, witnessing the increased level of human activity.
If you find an area that is devoid of finds, as Carling says "Woodland" is the prime suspect with much of medieval woodland being used for not only timber and fuel but also for pig rearing and so was a valuable part of many rural communities.
The proximity of your site to large urban areas does change all the rules as land is given over more to arable because of a ready market for the produce. In the more rural areas arable crops would have been for more local consumption due to the inability of getting these too market while still relatively fresh, cows, geese, sheep etc can walk to market (drovers tracks) carrots can't Wink The East had more large urban areas and so has more arable land to feed them.
One other point that's worth noting is, Nero has highlighted the lack of a Norman "influence", the influence word is a dangerous one to rely on as once again there is a east-wast split outside of large urban areas, influence can take a long time to travel, far back as the bronze age the early, middle and late phases differ by as much as 200 years between east and west and unless there is direct Saxon or Norman occupancy the influence never quite makes it.
One great saying to remember when trying to put together a picture of your land is "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"  Wink
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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2013, 05:15:05 PM »

A interesting read Geoff.... I only found out about the different uses of thimbles a few weeks ago and funny enough it was (Tim) I looked it up on line (more about thimbles) just Google it, he's right. Potato pickers, roof thatchers, straw splitting to help protect straw going under the nail, just a few there..... and maybe there is many more uses???
 
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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2013, 05:16:29 PM »

It may explain why there is so many it the middle of fields?
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Neil
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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2013, 05:30:44 PM »

Fantastic post Cheffy - thoroughly enjoyed reading your explanation.

Cheers
Neil
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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2013, 12:03:58 PM »

well, I was going to have a stab at the occupation data, but I'll still add a few things.

On the site I go to there is some occupation from mesolithic times all the way to the present, but there are times when finds are thin on the ground (i.e the dark ages to Ed III for instance).

There is of course the fact that during much of that period there just wasn't much coinage, and people moved from durable goods made from pottery and metal to wooden and leather impliments which don't usually survive.

I still find it interesting that you have 1st century fibula but no coins and then many coins (but fewer fibula) from the 3rd and 4th centuries, but I think this is an indication of the move from a barter to a monetary system - and the fact that the later coins were so worthless comparatively than the periods.
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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2013, 12:57:19 PM »

The fibula and no coins puzzle had me banging my head against the wall a few years ago, in the last 4 years I've found over 300 Roman coins and 47 fibula with only 2 coins dating to the first century and only 6 from the next two centuries Huh
The abundance of late 3rd or early 4th century coins is not surprising as from Reece periods 13 through 16 there was a massive investment in Britannia but the lack of early coins was confusing so I did me a lot of reading up..
The early coinage directly correlates with the proximity of both Vici and legionary bases and this area of Somerset seems to have been quite pro-Roman as signs of military movements seem quite scant other than in the more permanent civitates at Bath and Ilchester and so the presence of any military here was quite short lived as they pressed north, leaving behind a rural county. "Where the army goes the silver goes" and this is born out by the relatively high proportion of silver to bronze 1st century coins found in South Wales where of course the army played an active combat role for 20 years.
Although the Durotriges were one of the earliest tribes to issue staters it's believed that this had ceased before the Claudian invasion with much of their gold supply and trade ending with the Julian conquest of Gaul, so like the Salures they were a bartering culture so a bit of old copper or bronze wasn't going to fool anybody Grin Silver on the other hand had meaning.
My biggest question is how  the hell they bought the damn fibulas?
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