Pick on the detectorists

[Goldpanner]

blame should lie with tectorists themselves,when tectin  started there were no rules to where you could go,why wasnt the hobby regulated when it 1st started it might have layed the cornerstones of regulations that would have adhered today,i know many old tectrists that say {when you mention a site } oh yea I was there 30  years ago {must have been scheduled since then},and now some sites get scheduled because the simple fact someones been tectin on it and found more than they should have  {a regulation in the making if you like},,and these days we have people selling potential treasure items on the open market that haven't been throught the tvc  and of course we have always had the spectre of nighthawking,,,,how can the ncmd take responsibility for a group of people that probably started on the wrong foot anyway and continues to do so regarless of declaring finds or not.

Oh dear, your logic is all over the place. The first hobby detectors hit this country in the Mid 70's and the NCMD was formed around the early 80's. They did set the rules. The problem we have now is the mass of detectorists that have taken up the hobby in the last 15 years or so and many of them, not even knowing about the NCMD or FID.
There WERE rules when we started, same rules as today, you couldnt simply walk on to a farm and detect, you had to have permission.

No ones asking the NCMD to take any responsibility at all. What some of us are asking for is simply that they obey and enforce their own objectives which they arent doing. They are supposed to defend metal Detecting and its users. They arent doing that.

[carling2]

Oh dear, your logic is all over the place. The first hobby detectors hit this country in the Mid 70's and the NCMD was formed around the early 80's. They did set the rules. The problem we have now is the mass of detectorists that have taken up the hobby in the last 15 years or so and many of them, not even knowing about the NCMD or FID.
There WERE rules when we started, same rules as today, you couldnt simply walk on to a farm and detect, you had to have permission

here we go again the guys that have been detectin since year dot blame relative newbies to the hobby,,even though tectin wasn't regulated until a decade after it started??
of course you had to ask for permission but back then if a farm had a dirty great roman fort ,saxon palace etc on it ,,these days it will be scheduled.
most nighthawkers that have been caught are in there late 40s-60s and say they've been tectin for years?
you hear this term responsible tectin uttered time and again ,,some of it has been imposed and some don't care ,,,cant make a recipe with the wrong ingredients.

[Goldpanner]

Oh dear, your logic is all over the place. The first hobby detectors hit this country in the Mid 70's and the NCMD was formed around the early 80's. They did set the rules. The problem we have now is the mass of detectorists that have taken up the hobby in the last 15 years or so and many of them, not even knowing about the NCMD or FID.
There WERE rules when we started, same rules as today, you couldnt simply walk on to a farm and detect, you had to have permission

here we go again the guys that have been detectin since year dot blame relative newbies to the hobby,,even though tectin wasn't regulated until a decade after it started??
of course you had to ask for permission but back then if a farm had a dirty great roman fort ,saxon palace etc on it ,,these days it will be scheduled.
most nighthawkers that have been caught are in there late 40s-60s and say they've been tectin for years?
you hear this term responsible tectin uttered time and again ,,some of it has been imposed and some don't care ,,,cant make a recipe with the wrong ingredients.

I dont *Blame* anyone. I do however suggest that newbies to the hobby, and I mean people in the last 15 years or so, dont know about or realise the dangers out there from the people who want us stopped. They seem to just wish to either ignore the fact or leave it to others.
Its the old folks like me who saw the dangers back then and saw a need for an organisation to defend us from the 'frothing at the mouth' archies and non archies who want us stopped that formed the NCMD.
But the NCMD have become complacent and lost their edge.
Now it needs new blood, people with some balls who can take advice from the old boys and carry the flag forward.
Because if we, back then, had done what many are doing now and ignored the signs and the voices screaming at us, you wouldnt have the right to detect today. So if thats what you want for your kids then OK, do nothing, bury your head in the sand.
But your kids wont thanks you.

[Chef Geoff]

here we go again the guys that have been detectin since year dot blame relative newbies to the hobby,,even though tectin wasn't regulated until a decade after it started??
of course you had to ask for permission but back then if a farm had a dirty great roman fort ,saxon palace etc on it ,,these days it will be scheduled.
most nighthawkers that have been caught are in there late 40s-60s and say they've been tectin for years?
you hear this term responsible tectin uttered time and again ,,some of it has been imposed and some don't care ,,,cant make a recipe with the wrong ingredients.

I have to say Paul you're right on the money with many points. Though to be fair a newby doesn't mean "young" and with the majority of the hobby being over 40 and a large proportion being of or near retirement age, so the age of Nighthawks doesn't really relate to their time in the hobby.
I think you'll find that there are no sites that have been scheduled purely because of detecting finds that's an urban myth, finds leading to further investigation and then from those findings to scheduling yes but that just shows how beneficial the hobby can be if performed responsibly.
There were no real rules back in the 70's other than common sense and the law of treasure trove, most who were detecting at that time only realised the implications of what we did as a pastime when the hobby was nearly banned, that process though unsuccessful brought things like heritage, ethical detecting and the code of practice into sharp relief. But it would be far better in my view for the hobby of today to learn from the faults we made than to replay history but this time we have had our chance, and therefore we would lose
I know at times I probably come over as "holier than thou" and although I've never detected without official permission it is a little like "poacher turned gamekeeper" but then I didn't have the PAS but I did detect for a good 15 years in my own little world with only a cursory visit to the local museum to have my finds id'd.
I also agree to the selling of finds without recording (I don't disagree with selling finds by the way) but how this could be stopped is another question, possibly having to provide a PAS record sheet or give a statement of provenance before the likes of ebay would except certain items for sale may be one way.
But once again this in my view is about today and tomorrow not yesterday

[Chef Geoff]

Great minds and all that Golpanner lol

[carling2]

thank you Geoff and goldpanner ,, the point im trying to make out is that any regulation to detecting should have been from year dot and yes it does harp back 30 years but it affects how we detect today ,, the laws are in place and now a broad section of the detecting community believe in various attitudes to detecting and it just seems to me that you can not place more laws upon the hobby that are enforceable unless it covers everybody and is drastic,,as for the critics against the hobby its always going to happen as its a bit dyed in the wool now and as I said we don't all pee in the same pot,,flo,s or ncmd or fid wont change any working legislation to detecting that can be upheld by everybody in the tectin world.

[Chef Geoff]

Very true and we would need a sea change in attitude from people to effect the views of newcomers to the hobby but I do believe a more "in your face" NCMD that is there to educate and inform from day one may help begin the process.
As I have said many times before the greatest threat to this hobby comes from the hobby itself

[hotmill]

I understand people sell findsnow and then, that wasn't the point I was trying to make, what I was saying that it's a crying shame if that's all Joe public think we are in it for. Im also not saying that anythings the NCMD's fault, as with Chef and Goldplanner, I just think we need to be a bit more pro active in pushing the viewpoint of the responsible majority of us involved in the hobby rather than than the negative aspects of night hawkers and crims getting all the publicity. We're all on the same side, understood some want to just detect and avoid the political side of it, but someone needs to deal with that side if we're to ensure we're still digging freely in 10 years time.

[carling2]

comes down to peeing in the big pot again  ,,would be in the guiness book of records if we could find 1 big enough ,,,as for tectin in 10 years time,will it be worth it or possible ,,,that's another thread

[cardiffian]

There are detectorists on here from the days of the STOP campaign. No doubt there will be Archies still around who have not wavered from the view that the hobby should be banned. Granted, they may now be long in the tooth, but some will have reached the pinnacle of their careers and now in positions of greater influence. It is easier to preach from a position of high standing. With any profession, much of the young blood will aspire to the giddy heights of their mentors, and seniors, often taking up the same views.

About four years ago the Yeovil MDC had a stand at a major agricultural/country show. A family were complementing the club's finds on display. The mother then said that her young daughter who was present, had recently studied Archaeology at University in London. The daughter was full of praise for the hobby and said she had no problems with it at all. She then told us a story about a lecture she had attended, where the lecturer had impressed upon the whole class how evil metal detecting was. She said she didn't believe it, or indeed take it seriously, but many in that class did. It was a class of over 30 and I wonder how many were indoctrinated on that day? So yes there is still a threat and we should not allow complacency to set in.  

Imagine if someone found a hoard of major historical and national importance. Instead of declaring it they tried to sell it piecemeal over time, but were found out. Something of this nature would have serious repercussions for the hobby I am sure. On a lesser scale I am aware of at least three alleged hoards found in Dorset that were allegedly sold off through dealers. So it is not beyond the realms of possibility. Just food for thought!

[remix]

I have in the past and one of two currently, come across newly qualified archaeologists on various digs who have been taught the evils of the detector whilst at university and have been somewhat critical and at times downright rude to me over a cup of tea at break time. Now as you can expect i always put them straight which for most helped revise their original stance -  an archaeological dig is the best place to demonstrate the inadequacies of the profession they have chosen especially on commercial excavations. The sight of a 360 biting into up to a metre of top/sub soil which is then dumped on an ever increasing mountain of spoil usually brings reality to the fore.

However there were still some who saw that as the removal of unstratifed and as such inconsequential small finds which have little archaeological value especially to the excavation. Besides i have been told archaeology is not about small finds and especially unstratified ones in agriculturally homogenised plough soils !!!! Exactly the attitude i see in some of those who have made it to the top or at least near to, of the greasy pole of promotion and career. These individuals, no doubt influenced by their mentors in the 60/70/80's and the CBA's sponsored STOP Campaign, have retained their original prejudice and continue to maintain it in their dealing with metal detecting and their use anywhere they have a chance to influence be it agri-environment schemes or archaeological excavations.

As for undeclared hoard dispersals - i leave that in the realms of myths and legends which is what i expect they really are developed via Chinese wispers.

[Chef Geoff]

Firstly I think it's got to be acknowledged that pre-PAS the majority of archaeologists had little contact with metal detecting other than seeing the results of nighthawking and dig site raiding and so their view was one sided but this of course is the very reason while a more "visual" governing body would have been beneficial.
As to commercial digs using mechanical diggers then I think it's a case of "the boot being on the other foot" in us not understanding or appreciating the word commercial, generally these digs are focussed ie they have an idea of where or what they are looking for and time is money So their view of topsoil finds being of little importance to the dig is quite true as they work from the bottom up.
Unfortunately we detectorists have taken this view as our mantra for justifying why finds are not recorded "because they are out of context" shows the lack of knowledge in the hobby as context comes in two forms, time (stratification) and place (find location) and so even if a 2000 year old Roman coin is lying on the surface it is in a "place" context.
There is no myth about hoards or treasure finds disappearing into private hands, it has gone on since day 1 and playing the "three wise monkeys" card is what I mean about the greatest danger to the hobby is from the hobby.

[carling2]

thought this subject had gone but nope its reared its ugly head again and wth the same old comments,,,,,lets knock the archaeologists that knock us and say we can do no harm mantra,,sorry guys as Geoff says the danger is from within,,we are not guardians and protectors of finds,we are hobbyists in a hobby where many do not care where and when finds come from,,,and yes things do get sold that should have gone through the system ,,so yes there should be critics of the hobby we brought it on ourselves by the things we did/didn't do and without totally new laws set up to do with detecting that are enforceable we will always be in the spotlight and im not pointing the finger at anybody ,,we are all quilty of the critism we receive regardless of age,experiance etc,,,,,,makes me wonder why people are so very quick to defend the hobby but offer no solution to the bad publicity,,maybe you wont like the answers in which you seek grasshoppers.

[Goldpanner]

We have offered a solution
a new organisation that cares about the hobby and is prepared to fight to defend us against spurious and mostly wrong comments.
Sitting back and doing nothing isnt the answer,

Im going to be dead soon so I could just say sod it all but I care.

[remix]

As Geoff points out the need to make money form an excavation contract won at the lowest possible price will always see that most of the non strat finds will be lost unrecorded and unwanted to the spoil heaps. However in reality the solution to this lays with the Development Control Archaeologist who perhaps in negotiation with a developers archaeological consultant, decides on what the archaeological brief will be for the excavation. It is at that point that specification of the use of detectors before and during top/sub soil stripping can be added. Some do it as a norm whilst others only pay lip service to the idea and let the archaeological contractor get away with using a cheap detector in the hands of a inexperienced digger. Whatever they decide the brief is what the tenders are based on and so all tenderers are pricing on the same basis so there should be no excuse of the dismisal of the top/subsoil finds as of being no consequence.

In some respects the advent of developer lead excavations has resulted in a loss of a significant amout of archaeological material either as unstrat soil finds or as a result of briefs stating that as little as 5% of a linear feature, for example, is dug and recorded whilst the rest and any stratified finds it contains, is lost when the developer moves in. Seems to me that even an army of nighthawks could never hope to match this level of destruction and it is one sanctioned by the archaeological elite as well.