Pick on the detectorists

[Pon]

We need a new organisation now or a complete shakedown of the present one.

Without doubt the NCMD needs a face lift, I dont think anyone would argue with that. I know I've said it before, but I personally would like to see them being more vocal in their defence of the hobby. It does seem that they are quite happy to sit back, take peoples membership money and survive on the reputation that they had 20 years ago.

"to provide an authoritative voice to counter ill -informed and frequently misleading criticism of the hobby". Their words not mine, I just wish they would.  

Just out of interest, does anyone know of a detectorist that has needed their insurance? I ask because I havent, and I would genuinley like to hear from anyone that has.

Quote Win "Whatever you think of the NCMD today, the fact is that we would not have a hobby today if they hadn't worked so hard for us when the Tresure Act was being drafted in the mid 1990s".  I dont think anyone is disputing what was allegedly done 20 years ago, Its what they haven't done in the last 20 years that dissapoints me.

[Goldpanner]

So in effect their business is running their business and not doing what they are mandated to do?
Thanks, thats what I thought.

We need a new organisation now or a complete shakedown of the present one.
The Treasure Act was a trap that the NCMD fell into, now they are afraid to bite the hand that gives them credibility, The Government.

I can forgive you that comment as you're a newbie. Whatever you think of the NCMD today, the fact is that we would not have a hobby today if they hadn't worked so hard for us when the Tresure Act was being drafted in the mid 1990s. The arkies expected to have carte blanche to do as they liked and mandarins in Whitehall would have just rubber stamped it. Other detecting bodies just stood on the sidelines and criticised.

A newbie? DONT call me a newbie, I was fieldwalking and detecting probably before you were born.

So you want the 2/- Argument eh? OK fine, sit down and read sonny boy.

I know an awfull lot about the NCMD and the Treasure Act as I was part of the grouping opposing the Treasure Act as it was proposed.
With or without the NCMD we would still be detecting. The NCMD had little if anything to do with the Treasure Act other than sucking up to politicians to ensure their noses were in the trough.

So lets just put some other things in perspective.The NCMD havent 'ensured' anything.
The NCMD only did a 'good job' because at the time when the Treasure Act was proposed, it was the only people the Government would talk to.
Its a neat Government trick used to blindside many people when they can say about any Consultations, "Well we are in discussions with the relevant organisation". Thats always a killer for the blind fools who believe it.
But the truth was that there were far more detectorists NOT in the NCMD than there were actually in it, and  a majority of people opposed to the Treasure Act, but the Government ignored that fact. Sure they put out Green Papers then White Papers for consultation but didnt take a blind bit of Notice of the responses to them. The Treasure Act itself was slid through parliament, minutes before the house was prorogued before a General Election with only 5 people sitting in the House to vote. Technically it was an illegal enactment as members of the house were not given sufficient notification of the vote before it happened. Do your history, check your facts.
Now, the NCMD had a straight choice of which side of the fence to sit on. They either sided with the Anti's who were the actual majority of their members or took the cushy road of supporting the Treasure Act knowing that would then put them in the Governments pockets and sitting at their tables.
That was what they chose. The easy route, the cushy route.
However, Its a simple fact that NCMD or no NCMD we would still be detecting with the Treasure Act as that was the law. It would have been passed without any involvement of the NCMD, they just jumped on the Gravy Train while they could.

So we have the Treasure Act and the NCMD. I obey the law and am a member of the NCMD and obey the Treasure Act.
Being a member of something however, doesnt dis-enable them from commenting on what they and a lot of other members are thinking and indeed saying.

However........The NCMD in its present form has become complacent and lazy, full of old farts who really cant be bothered to do much at all, pretty much the same as the FID. It should be working alongside EU organisations to further our detecting rights, not only in this country but also within the EU.

Are you happy that practically anything in your garden soil doesnt belong to you? Do you think Farmers are really chufffed to be told that stuff found on their land, land that could have been in their family for hundreds of years isnt theirs by right? What right does the government have to seize something lost hundreds of years ago?.
The NCMD have become too lazy and should be doing more for us instead of partying with Government Ministers.

How dya like them apples, junior ?

[Chef Geoff]

OK guys keep it as a debate and as one it's good to hear the different sides.

We seem to have a few points being raised all pointing to a new or improved organisation but coming from slightly different angles in regard to the motivation.
We have got to remember that any representative body is going to have limited effect when dealing with the government for as I've said before, there are an estimated three times as many bell ringers in the UK than there are regular detectorists and so we have to play the game to a certain extent.
I see and saw the change in the treasure act as a result of our own success and in one way we as a hobby should be proud that enough archaeologically interesting things were being found to cause the change and remember that the change now costs the government far far more than did the old law of treasure trove.
I am currently working with groups in both Ireland and France to lobby their governments into legalising detecting and so I would echo Goldpanners idea of a broader interest in the organisation.
Its in this area that I've come to realise that "we've never had it so good" and our moaning about this and that is reminiscent of a bunch of spoilt kids. These groups don't even want the total freedom that we have but a self-regulated hobby with licensing and training.
To come back to Remix's answer for a minute. The argument that true figures cannot be given due to a constant change in those numbers only holds up if we are talking about "todays" numbers, surely then the membershipship numbers on the 1st of August this year should be no problem?
"The accounts are available for examination" OK so how do I get to examine them and yes I really do want to?
The apathy of detectorists is a direct result of the freedom that has existed for 30 years, the majority of detectorists won't know anything of how close we came to losing the hobby in 82, with some not even born A large proportion weren't even detecting in 96 and the TA, so we must appear like Chelsea Pensioners talking about some long forgotten war.
I would like an organisation that promotes knowledge in the hobby, I don't care whether they sip tea with the government I want a body who is seen as expert enough to be consulted by the BM and be part of the planning committee of PAS.

[remix]

I do like a good debate. Where do i start ?

[Chef Geoff]

Very good reply Remix and thank you.
The stock figure though is I'm afraid in my mind not really professional or good enough.I am a paid up member of NCMD and would love to read their newsletter if they would only send me one
If as you say all this work is going on behind the scenes then surely what NCMD needs is a PR makeover?  As for "All other relevant documents are published on the NCMD website"   there are only 15 documents there and 8 of those are over ten years old.
Whoever wrote "A SHARED HERITAGE" in my view needs a medal and should be mandatory reading for anyone before they leave the shop with their shiny new toy but why isn't it up there for all to see as a web page entitled "What we stand for" rather than a pdf document tagged 1998?
I agree that experience counts for much but even better if it comes with wisdom and the ability to adapt, The Digging Deep (really bad title) newsletter (the few that I did receive) is more like a SAGA holiday brochure and nothing about it is going to promote a wish by new blood to be involved. And so PR PR PR and to get their finger back on the pulse of what the hobby is, wants and needs

[Goldpanner]

I do like a good debate. Where do i start ?

How about with the facts?, is that too much to ask?.

There was little point in opposing the Treasure Act and it would have been naive to expect that by doing so would have protected the hobby and its freedoms in any way.

Of course there was little point in opposing it as it was already done and dusted by the time the NCMD were sucked in. What a coup for the Government and the NCMD fell for it.
We didn't want to oppose it, we simply wanted our points of view and suggestions and people who had suggestions and points of views to be considered....they werent, everyone opposing the Treasure Act were ignored. Why didn't the Government have meetings with the opponents?
The naivete was expecting the Government to consult with everyone. They didn't. They already knew what they were going to do and they did it, NCMD or not, they just wanted the NCMD along as it gave their Treasure Act a little clout, so they could say "Hey The Detectorists organisation supports this"

The only way foward was to negotiate which the NCMD did,

Your naivete in this is stunning, to say the least. The Act was going to be law no matter what the NCMD said.
The only negotiating they did was for how many NCMD committee members would be on the valuation committee and how much their expenses were for doing so. They negotiated nothing.They were patted on the head and told to shut up. It was laughable because most of the NCMD committee at the time they were involved in the Treasure act didn't even have a detector or had even  been out detecting for a long time. There are doubts if Jordan had ever even owned one.

to get a consensus of views to ensure that the inevitable compromise was reached and each party could be seen to have gained what they sought from the process. Negativity would have resulted in a form of draconian regulation by statue, which would have meant the end for the widespread use of metal detectors in the hobby sense.

Utter and absolute rubbish. But what do you think the Treasure Act is? Its regulation by effective statute. They simply couldn't then and cant now ban it. It would cause absolute uproar amongst the landowners for a start. The Treasure Act was a done and dusted thing before the call to the NCMD was even made, there was no compromise.

I know what was awaiting for the hobby in the wings if the NCMD had not sought to discuss the issues when the opportunity arose.

Oh Really? You KNOW?? No, you assume, and your assumptions would be wrong.. The NCMD didn't discuss anything, they sat round a table and talked but were told what to do, what they would be allowed to do. READ the minutes of the meetings, not the NCMD Minutes but the REAL minutes.

Those that were pushing for a change in antiquity legisaltion ,were not the friends of detecting and far from it with the likes of the Surrey Archaeological Society and other archaeological pressure groups which were behind the many failed attempts to introduce new legislation such as the Perth Bill.

Probably the only thing I can agree with you on this post

On the contrary the NCMD had much to do with the content of the final Bill which went before Parliament, the result of many many hours of face to face discussion and document drafting.

That's what they want you to believe but they had absolutely nothing to do with the final Bill or any amendments to it, they were presented with a Fait accompli, either go along with it or you're out in the cold. But there were indeed many hours of meetings, lots of taxpayers money spent on booze and expensive food and cigars.
Its called "greasing the palms"

By opposing it would have meant none of this would have taken place and we would have been looking at the history books for details of detecting in the UK when it was legal.

Utter and absolute rubbish. If they had opposed it, it would have meant nothing, the Act would still have gone through.
The actual vote in the House of Commons and absolute minute by minute timing of the vote, bare minutes before Parliament was prorogued was very carefully planned so that none of the members opposed to it were even in the house. It was a fiendishly conceived and well executed plan. They knew if it didn't go through then it would never have done so, so it had to be done secretly. My MP complained bitterly as he was not even advised of the vote until it was too late.

Goldpanner i totally refute your spurious analysis of the NCMD's role as being far from the truth as it could ever be. I know you will never be convinced by what i have to say on the NCMD or any other related matter and we will have to disagree on these as there is a little point in debating a "what if "scenario.

Probably as I have far more knowledge passed to me from someone inside the NCMD than you did and I was actually there opposing it tooth and nail right from from the start along with other groups like DIG. I knew about the Treasure Act proposals before even the NCMD did, work that one out.

.You obviously feel better placed out of the game to be able to snipe and criticise at will which is so much easier to do than actually doing something and getting involved.

But I was involved, very heavily but on the side opposing the Treasure Act, even though I was an NCMD member at the time and made my feelings quite clear. There was nothing wrong with Treasure Trove that couldnt have been fixed with a few tweaks. But don't say I wasnt involved, you should have seen my telephone bill and bills for printer ribbons and paper.
And now? I'm too old to start getting involved.
But you state I snipe and criticise? That's called democracy, its what my brother died for. I WILL speak out when I see something wrong though.

And a final point if you were a member of the NCMD and received Digging  Deep, you would have read details of how the NCMD is supporting the development of a European Council for metal detecting.

Too little too late.
Supporting something doesnt mean 'Actively Involved' or 'leading'. With the experience we have in this country we are centrally placed to lobby other EU members yet we arent doing it. Good grief were doing little in this country to amend the Treasure Act into something that's properly workable.

As for partying with Minister if you were involved you would already know the answer to that one.

I DO know the answers, that's why I posted it!

We are very fortunate in England and Wales where the ownership of 99% of all finds is vested in the landowner and have in place competent legislation which adequately rewards finders of the remainder which falls under the Treasure definitions.

I don't think were reading the same treasure act.

The failure of the mainstram membership to grasp the value of this combination is lamentable and too many simply see detecting as a right and a means to enrich themselves. I will not open that can of worms at present.

Oh sorry, so *you* grasp it all and we menials dont?.  Maybe I should bow in your general direction?
 It IS a right to detect on someones property and find things if they give permission to do so. It IS also a right to detect in Parks and public land. Councils don't own anything, they Govern on behalf of us but most Councils make it up as they go along.
The state doesn't have a right to steal something that could have been dropped on someones private land 3 or 400 years ago.  The same as The Crown doesn't have a right to claim that all gold in this land and rivers belongs to them.
Maybe you'll be happy if they bring back the Droit de Seigneur? because that's not far from the Treasure act.

Now  to close with a final point that you raised with respect to the PAS. The NCMD is consulted on PAS centric issues and there is a two way flow of information when the need arises.

The phrase 'Blind leading the blind' springs to mind here, considering most of the NCMD committee haven't swung a detector in many years.

You must realise that many of the issues such as staffing matters are of little importance whereas in the bigger picture the recent and current funding, and at one point the survival of the PAS,  are and which saw the NCMD discussing such issues  direct with the Culture Minister and others. Such involvement is the norm and the NCMD regularly attends the Portable Antiquities Advisory Group meetings where all matters relating to the PAS and the hobby are discussed.

I bet the claims for expensive wine and whisky goes up around this time?.
Matters are 'Discussed'? That's another great government trap to get people thinking that what they actually say means anything, it doesnt.

All seems to be a quiet at present on the PAS front, but i am sure once the date for the Review of the Treasure Act Code of Practice is fixed the work of the NCMD on behalf of its members will rocket, but that is another topic entirely.

Remember, Government should be afraid of the people, The people shouldnt be afraid of the Government

Well lets hope we either get a new organisation consisting of actual detectorists and not carpetbaggers this time who actually know what they are talking about, or maybe if there's a blinding flash in the sky the NCMD might even start taking any notice of what its members are saying.
Then again its all pointless as the Government would have already fixed things before any discussions take place and the discussions are all smoke and mirrors.

[Chef Geoff]

I've had to do something that I abhor and that is to delete posts as it was turning into an argument about something that did or didn't happen 17 years ago
I think we have agreed that the NCMD was a main force in keeping detecting legal 30 years ago .
This debate is about the here and now give or take a few years, so no brownie points for praising past glories or pointing out failures. Do as the focus of the thread is trying to do and think on what the hobby needs now to go forward.

[carling2]

need to stop fannying about and realise its JUST A HOBBY..if I was new to detecting I would think Christ what a bunch of fruits,,you buy a detecter,you get some land ,you make finds {or not} you declare finds {or not}  end of story,,,,i used to think trainspotters were a bit square but this goes beyond that and I don't think there is any other hobby I know that is so insecure in itself that there are so many divisions in the general detecting community about who finds what,who goes where etc,nevermind all this palaver.

[Chef Geoff]

But paul surely that's the self serving attitude that defeats any legitimacy that others try to invoke for the hobby, the Magpie approach just plays into the hands of the detractors if enough people are shown to "detect and go" then Goldpanners fear regarding the treasure act could come true in the sense that they can make buttons treasure if they decide to.

[stever]

well said carling  I couldn't agree more

[carling2]

cheers stever, this self serving attitude is enjoyed by many in the detecting world and its something that wont change,think about how many people detect in the u.k and how many finds have been reported over the last 30 years,,when I 1st started detecting I knew nothing of the treasure act,flo,clubs etc only that I had to dig holes to find something ,,,now as time as rolled by and the more ive learned about the political side of detecting im not impressed and don't see how you can have a national body for tectin when people don't pee in the same pot,,,,,recording finds for instance,i know chairman of clubs that have brought stuff of me to put in as finds of the month and therefore recorded {I wonder how much of that goes on} also displacing finds spots for gain, therefore the finds record is not a accurate picture,nighgthawking goes on by many and is condoned by many {not I may I add} and will continue to do so,this hobby has a problem proving any legitimacy on detecting as it is so why not just switch on and go as long as your not hawking ,trespassing,etc,,as for goldpanners faer that buttons may be declared treasure ,, why not? will it make a difference? no people will still declare or  not,,the rules may change but the game remains the same.

[Goldpanner]

so why not just switch on and go as long as your not hawking ,trespassing,etc,,as for goldpanners faer that buttons may be declared treasure ,, why not? will it make a difference? no people will still declare or  not,,the rules may change but the game remains the same.

Your right to ;switch on and go was a hard fought battle, enjoy it. It might be a simple passtime to some but to others it is a full time hobby.
I compare it to people with Train sets, some have lofts converted to entire rail systems and some are happy with some tracks in a box.
Detecting effectively saved my life back in the 70's, that's why I'm so supportive of it

However, It isnt the fact that buttons can be called Treasure, its the fact that with a few words written in the right place, in the right sentence, Detecting could be banned or have such horrendous rules written in to make it effectively impossible.
Look at the EU, Detecting is effectively banned everywhere and our rights to detect were hard fought by a lot of people.
We have to remain very alert, or have an organisation that is very alert. I and others are getting too old now and we need younger smart people to be very alert to the threats posed by nighthawkers and site robbers who are going to give us all a bad name, and of the agencies out there that want our detectors destroyed.
The NCMD should be the eyes and ears of the hobby yet they arent. They need to update, to improve, to get rid of their complacency, or to get out and let someone else do the job.

[stever]

I think carling that because of all the political rubbish that's been invented by some muppets that's why a lot of stuff doesn't get recorded I mean if you find something of value you have to wait well over a year to wait for some numpty to decide how much its worth and when you will receive payment if I find anything of value and I want to sell it I would not wait that long there is just no need for that long winded treasure process if they sorted it out so its very simple and efficient people more people would declare more finds so in summary of this rant .... keep it short and simple and lets enjoy the hobby

[carling2]

my turn to agree with stever and goldpanner I agree with you for most of your statement ,,the right to switch on and go was fought by who and when?,,,when the 1st machines were brought out in the u.k did the 1st bloke that used 1 said right I must form a metal detecting council to see where and when I can use this thing ,, did he hell ,he brought it tried it out in his yard then set off for the nearest available land he could get and there were a lot less scheduled sites around in those days so maybe he did far better finds wise than we do today and just maybe he started all this,lets ctiticise the tectorists for where there going and the things there finding in the 1st place.

[Goldpanner]

my turn to agree with stever and goldpanner I agree with you for most of your statement ,,the right to switch on and go was fought by who and when?,,,when the 1st machines were brought out in the u.k did the 1st bloke that used 1 said right I must form a metal detecting council to see where and when I can use this thing ,, did he hell ,he brought it tried it out in his yard then set off for the nearest available land he could get and there were a lot less scheduled sites around in those days so maybe he did far better finds wise than we do today and just maybe he started all this,lets  anti lets ctiticise the tectorists for where there going and the things there finding in the 1st place.

The thing is. when the first machines hit these shores in anger in the 70's, there were no organisation's at all. Everyone thought it was a passing fad. I can remember the first time I walked into the BM in the 70's and offered 5 Roman Trumpet brooches to them. I told them they had been found on ordinary Farmland with a Metal detector then also turned out a few silver denarii, and they were lost. They were totally aghast that people could do this. They were angry and actually told me not to do it again as they walked off with my finds.
I realised then that there were going to be problems in the future, but like most people just buried my head in the sand and enjoyed my hobby. I joined the NCMD as soon as it was formed and back then there was an energy to defend the hobby at all costs. I was also asked to be on the committee but I'm not that type and I was also a jobbing musician so didn't have the time. It was pretty obvious though within a few years of detectors being for sale that there was a growing interest as you could see clubs being formed.

What also came to mine and others notice was the vociferous and rabidly angry responses to detecting by 'The Establishment' who accused us all of being thieves and site robbers etc. That was when the excreta started to hit the Fan. That was when the group called DIG was formed, to inform and educate.

The thing is, times change, governments change and those people who opposed us way back then passed their fears and hates on to others. Fortunately for us the PAS has woken up the establishment to the benefits of the detectorist's. The problem we have is the rabid uneducated few, who because of some nighthawks and site robbers have tarred us all with the same brush. The fishing fraternity don't all get called thieves because of a few Poachers?, motorists arent all branded as murderers because some people get killed by cars, we dont condemn the archaeological establishment because of some Archies who steal and sell antiquities (and there's more of them doing that than detectorist's doing the dirty) why should we all be tarred as thieves because of a few animals who see it as OK to steal this Nations treasure and sell it off privately?.
And the big problem we have is that the voices countering those allegations just arent there any more. The Archies are given free reign to attack and condemn us yet where are the demands for the right to reply to these scurrilous accusations?.
We have to defend ourselves from those who want our rights taken away, because believe me they are out there and burying your head in the sand and ignoring it is the worst thing to do.
We need to be proactive and shout about all the wonderful things that we have found for our Country, not rest on our laurels.