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Author Topic: Should The Words( Fair Market Price) Be Dropped On Treasure Valuations?  (Read 8614 times)
Spooyt Vane
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« on: July 21, 2012, 11:55:23 AM »

I have no axe to grind with Treasure Valuation Commitee on treasure rewards ..As i feel they have a very hard job on objects with no comparible match from previous auctions ....But coins have a  match from previous sales and should be like from like on valuations ...That is not the case as valuation is based on how prices might drop if suddenly a hoard hits the market ..That is total assumption on my behalf ,but there is a big discrepancies in current treasure valuations and present coin prices...My hunch might be right and in my opinion they should drop the term fair market price ........ Roll Eyes.
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avalon
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2012, 08:05:20 PM »

I think the fairest system would be to put all objects into an auction and let them find their own price level.  The T.C.V havenít got a clue with the provisional valuation they give on many of the objects.  Itís like you watching the Antiques Roadshow and guessing what the objects are worth, prices can fluctuate with the economic climate of the time, and how many bidders want the object..

If it were a fair system, whatís wrong with the museums paying  what the objects are worth on the open market, at least the person who outbids the museums will have it on show, not hidden in a box in the basement.


When questioned they will tell you  itís a ĎReward paymentí, well bully for them.  Angry
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probono
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2012, 08:48:53 PM »

It's a difficult one - I remember a hoard of aureii being found in Oxford and them being valued at £1000 each - even though there were some unique ones in amongst it.

Yet, some roman coins (for instance) are cheap - I feel a fair price is usually somewhere between what the hoard is valued at, and what the detectorist thinks their items are valued at (for coins - artifacts are often much harder to value).

But then some dealers also have a 'one size fits all' idea - so it doesn't matter how rare your coin they only pay £x for that type of coin (I had it recently when I sold some denarii).

Anyway, I was told that some of the value of items is taken up in the cost of having had them 'cleaned' / sorry I mean conserved - and given that I was quoted £291 for one coin (because they had to charge a full day's work in the lab) - maybe that's where all the value goes (I didn't take up the offer - I normally clean things myself, but felt that I should get it done 'properly' every so often).

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Chef Geoff
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2012, 09:33:30 PM »

I think they "err on the side of caution" a bit too heavily and seem to pay close to what a "dealer" would buy the item for and not what the open market would pay.
I have seen over the years that even dealers aren't so desperate to attain some rare coins, as metal detecting has become somewhat of a production line and large investments in coins and artefacts aren't quite so safe from depreciation. I have a Seaby's coin book knocking around somewhere from back in the late 70's, and in there you have quite a few staters that are marked as "unique" or priced at over £30,000, some of which are now valued at a tiny fraction of the price.
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Radnor Bandit (Ian)
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2012, 09:48:39 PM »

Also its worth noting that at present the awards are being made from the same "pot" as that white elephant called the olympics!
In my limited experience, the valuation commitee once its made its mind up on a valuation will not change it regardless of evidence to the contary supplied. This is either because of professional arrogance / budget restrictions or a mixture of both.
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avalon
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2012, 06:38:03 AM »

Here is a good example. I found a silver buckle dated 1620ís and Kurt Adams grabbed it from me under the Treasure Act. Two years later I get a letter from the T.V.C. saying  the object has been valued at £40.00 because they have a similar one  featured in their Treasure Annual Report. They said because mine didnít have a hall mark it was later than the example with one ( remember this is a panel of experts)
I pointed this out that they had it the wrong way round, and if they had turned to the next page in there rip off Treasure Annual Report book, there was an example exactly the same as mine which they paid £120 for, so I asked them why the discrepancy between the prices..

The Gloucester museum was keen to purchase it for £40.00 as they couldnít resist a bargain, but all was not to be as the T.V.C apologised for their error and  raised the price to £110. Surprise, surprise  Gloucester museum backed out because they didnít want to pay the higher price.
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avalon
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2012, 07:14:22 AM »

The Provisional valuation  is just meant to be a guideline before the final valuation, but more often than not, they come up with the same figure. You can argue with them until you are blue in the face, but they will disregard any letters of appeal and any new evidence you supply will end up in the bin.

They will only except a valuation off an acknowledged dealer who happen to be on there books, and will cite any valuations  on past payments they have previously made.  You only need one person to  accept a lower payment, without appeal,  for the downward payment spiral  to begin.

Gold ring money is a classic example as pieces used to go for thousands, but they now class them as hair tress rings which has taken them out  of the numismatist market where they were collected by coin collectors as our first form of coinage.

The prices have now dropped to about £350.
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Spooyt Vane
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2012, 10:00:28 AM »

I had the good fortune to see a hoard of Viking/Saxon coins and ingots on the day they were found..The hoard contained mostly Sitric of Dublin in beautiful condition and Ethelreds..The lad who found it was a complete novice and asked what it was worth much....I spent two hours with coin books and i guessed about £400,000 .....He was shocked ,but i said if there are Hiberno Manx coins in the ihoard ,it could be twice as much...He eventually after 5 years of wrangling got £300-000 TREASURE TROVE REWARD.....But the downside is that there was 33 Hiberno Norse coins in the hoard ....At that time valued at £7/8-000 each at auction prices and now £10-000 +..They were worth nearly £300,000 on their own allowing for market dips  Roll Eyes

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jtalbot0001
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2012, 11:15:32 AM »

I actually have my Bronze Age Hoard going through this process at the moment. I got an evaluation done a month ago and and I had the chance to appeal this amount, which I did with evidence etc and my letter was acknowledged as they sent a copy to the Farmer as well as the North Somerset Museum who wish to acquire it. The TVC Meeting was held on Friday so I will know this week hopefully if my letter had any effect on the price at all! And I can say they did not take a fair market value onto consideration on the first valuation. Funny this subject has just come up as the NCMD have just sent out there magazine with this discussion in it as well.
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2012, 12:14:58 PM »

Very interesting this, my first treasure item a gold Roman earring is about 18months into the process now, have had a letter to say it is treasure Roll Eyes and that Corinium Museum are interested in buying it. I noticed that on the letter my FLO sent with the earring to the British Museum initially, he cited a reference to another 'similar' example in one of the Treasure Reports so I looked it up.........it turned out to be a very mangled strip of gold, the only similarity I could see was that it might have had a 'diamond' shaped cross section like mine..the reward for that one was £80!!! Now my earring is in perfect condition, amazing considering how long it's been in the ground, and the FLO himself said it's something pretty special, but I'm worried that even so because this other item has been cited as a reference that the valuation will be based on that figure of £80 which is ridiculous, it's not even its scrap gold value.

Once an item has been through the process does it have to be sold to a museum, or could you theoretically 'buy it back' yourself, based on their valuation?
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Same sh*t different hole!!
avalon
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2012, 03:56:25 PM »

I can assure you Herbie , if they want to acquire it, you will never get a sniff at it again, but  the Corinium Museum have no money left in the kitty, so it will have to come from the Art fund or friends of the museum.
If it was valued over a £1000 you will probably get it back.

Be nice to see you at the next rally with a Prince Albert ring  Cheesy
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The Ferret
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2012, 06:47:45 PM »

Drop it and the owner should have the right to send it to auction and let them bid it out  Grin
Now that's a FAIR Game Grin
TF
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probono
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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2012, 02:48:20 PM »

Again I have completed some research recently.

as i mentioned I've recently sold some denarii and others (purchased from many different sources over 20 years or so) at an average selling price of £25 (for the denarii) and £45 (for the 4th century silver)  to a dealer.

Some of the these coins have re-appeared on eBay, so I have a good idea of what they went for - on average I am about 40-50% down on what I could have got on eBay - with one denarius selling yesterday for £95 and a siliqua selling for £110 - so yet again what is a fair value? Is the dealer's buyng price the fair price, is his retail prices fair (coins on his trays are ~30%-500% higher priced), or is the eBay price fair? I also know that - should I ever find a hoard and it was returned - I would (if I sold it, as I have never sold anything I have found) sell it out piecemeal, rather than in one go - so would that be a 'fair' price?
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2012, 09:25:05 AM »

Interesting discussion this. I've listened to various discussions in various clubs on this matter and 'all' end with the same conclusion.
The person doing the finding/landowner are constantly getting a rough deal from this system. I've never found anything of value
so have no axe to grind but if this is the case, can't they see their cutting their own throats. What's going to happen is that people who
find this type of item will simply stop reporting them. 'Its obvious'.. Then were back to the old way of thinking (them and us) which serves no
purpose whatsoever. Put whatever is found into auction and let the market decide. If a museum wants an item that badly they'll find the resources
I'm sure. A very large proportion of archaeological evidence and research today is courtesy of detectorists yet were still being given very little credit
by the establishment and appear to be being given a rough deal through the system.
Lets see some common sense on both sides because in my experience most people are fair minded and want to help in anyway they can but that
goodwill will soon disappear if they feel their being treated unfairly. 

Ysbyty
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Spooyt Vane
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2012, 12:40:55 PM »

Your right Mike on subject of fairness,as the whole point of the Treasure act is to get people to report finds ,so the state can claim them in exchange for a fair reward..The trouble is if people feel they not been treated fairly,they will sell on the quiet ...That is not what we wanty want?
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