DetectingWales.com

Hi,

The turned upside down explorer 11 / se pro hmmmmm oh yes they call it the e.trac !

I see Des Dunne having another go in explaining how easy the e.trac is to use.

Not that long ago he tried explaining it over 2 monthly editions ( approx- 8 pages long )  ::) how easy it was to use, ;D

One thinks the sales might be suffering since the Deus has hit the market and I see, some moving away from e.trac onto this Deus.

Having said all that, I am still happy with my explorer se pro  and it will find anything the e.trac does and costs less  ;D

I wish minelab would clarify if there is a difference in microprocessor between se and e.trac ?? Then i would accept its a completely new concept !

E.trac is old news now, come on minelab come out with something better than the Deus ! ;D

as long as the minelab faithful are buying the next wonder machine i dont think minelab will be to worried about the Deus. a lot of detectorist's stay loyal to their chosen manufactuer you only have to go on the xp or mlo sites to see that so whatever they churn out be it better or worse than the last model the faithful will still buy it

ok

I expect they let Desse have a few pages every now and again, gratis, to push the virtues of the Minelab range.

After all, Minelab do a lot of advertising with the TH.

The XP Deus still hasn't really reached these shores due to a shortage of them as they are in the middle of moving factory. Talk about timing!

When the Deus is on un-restricted supply, and IF the performance is up to the hype, I expect Minelab to drop the price of the ET. (Don't forget it was £999 when first released....and then the robbing b******s put it up to £1249+)

Desse may well be back with another article  ;D

 

I can't comment on the Deus as i have never used one, but I have used lots of Minelabs and I still think the Sovereign is the best beach machine you can get.
But I think the way forward is not to bring machines quickly on to the market with little changes just to make a quick buck, which I think Minelab are doing at the moment, but instead listen to detectorists needs.
I think the F75, T2 & THE XP machines are at the top of Metal detector design at the moment,and I think Minelab got as close to perfection as they are going to get with their Sovereign Elite and Explorer XS, Minelab need to go back and rethink their products for the future.

Just my thoughts,

Steve.

RJM, you cannot be far from the truth there ! Minelab spend a lot of dosh advertising.

It just seemed a little odd to me, isnt it now a year old, and to still see the need to explain
still over a number of pages, how to program the e.trac.

is it that easy then  ;D this e.trac  ;D

I own a sov elite as well, and still use it on occasions and yes it was and still is a formidable beach detector !

I have to agree with what you said about Minelab drip feeding machines. I can't understand how they couldn't have made the ET a LOT lighter and with cordless headphones.

Can't comment much about the F75 and T2 as I haven't used them. I understand their performance is excellent and the latest T2 has addressed its earlier build quality problems.

XP range (of which I have had all) is excellent with recovery speed probably being the best out there. (Ideal for iron infested sites or hammered/small coin hunting).

Don't forget the V3..... I'm in the process of learning with it but quite impressed so far. Haven't used the 22.5Khz program on it's own yet but I have heard it's not too far off XP Goldmaxx with recovery speed..........plus you have the additional informative screens and Autotrac as well.

I'd love to see Minelab bring a totally different concept machine to the market instead of a re-hash of what they already offer. Ideas are switcheable chooseable one or more  frequencies or whatever instead of present 28 to aid faster processing and recovery speed, Live controls like V3, colour screens, weight reduced by half, etc etc

I'd be interested in reading Desse reviewing one of these instead of just going through what's already in the ET manual !

We (the public) don't know what processor is in the E Trac or Safari as Minelab will not reveal.

On the contrary, Whites are quite open about what processor is in their V3.

Why Minelab can't be open and honest I don't know; I suspect it's becasue they have something to hide.

Apparently Minelabs new Explorer ET + has a programme which you can use as many or as little frequencies as you like, I believe the introductory price will be £8500  ;D

Even at that price they will have a following .........

Minelab users are like Labour voters.....you can put a red rosette on a donkey and they'd still go for it!!!!  ;D  LOL


(OK OK ..........Don't kill me...........I'm only joking.........  (or am I??)   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Living dangerously rjm  ;D   Wales used to be a labour stronghold before Gordon ha ha  ;D

Its interesting to see other peoples view.

One wonders whether minelab havent got anything to offer in 2010 except rehashing
the e.trac manual, well for the time being , one hopes !

I would have much preferred to have read a couple of pages of how minelab are
looking to the future technologies, than old news. ::)

Me too!

Minealb are very cunning and have stunted the free market by having it's sole UK distributor as Joan Allen.

JA sell on to other dealers and JA dictate what price they can sell the machines. Behold the UK dealer that
imports Minelab machines himself and sells them !!!!!!!!!!!!! Minelab will find out (from serial numbers) who
did the supplying and cut off their supply.

Also, try getting an imported Minelab repaired under warranty that wasn't purchased in the UK.

Totally in contravention of EU rules of free trade.

Add this to their refusal to publically reveal the processor used in their machines, their drip feeding of re-hashed
technology and it all makes you wonder.........well, those of us who are free thinking !!
what

I don't think you can blame Minelab for  Joan Allen being sole distributors as that's the way the market is set up ie XP, Garret and Tecnetiks are only available through Regton.

All I can say about Joan Allen is never again, what a terrible service and attitude.  >:(

I have to agree, back in the 70/80's they were brilliant but I wouldn't but a battery of them now.

i'll tell you a true story about ja   when i was ringing around dealers for the best price on a f75 one dealer quoted me £480 which was £90 less than mrp. i rang ja and their best price was £530 when i told them the price i'd been quoted the assistant asked me to hold the line 30 secs later he came back and offered me a f75 for £480+a set of headphones if i told them the dealers name to which i declined and i've never used ja since then. it goes to show theres making a profit and making a killing

Greed, Mike all boils down to greed. I honestly think an im not getting into the explorer Deus debate its a bit like vauxhall an ford or levi and wrangler. I think whatever make you buy and spend time with you get used to it and for that reason you stick with that same maker. Im so used to the SE/ex11 with the sounds that going to a diff machine it takes time to get used to the different sounds, like the T2 for example totaly diferent sounds and I know it will take time to get used to. thats not to say its a worse/better machine its that the user isnt used to it. i stopped detecting for a yr but when i picked up the se i knew every setting straight away as if it was yesterday. I bet if I had XPs i would have gone back to them I think 90% is familiarity  with the machine which in turn gives confidence which results in finds.

totaly agree with you paul but sometimes your preferred brand latest machine is not much better than what you allready have. i like whites but at the moment they have nothing in their mid range that will get near the f75 and the v3 is out of my price bracket so i'll carry on until a detector comes out that i think will better the f75 be it minelab/ whites/or whoever. dont be frightend of change

Interesting discussion here folks and in my case very relevant as I have the money in my pocket burning a hole to get my self a new machine. I originally went for the E Trac but because of comments made by fellow detectorists on DW I held back to see the proof of its alleged superiority, which really has not materialised and this has been backed up by the countless people who have bought one and admitted they have not really improved there find ratio. Two or three months down the line I have come to the conclusion from reviews ( but are they paid to say what they say), fellow users personal testimony, and noting users finds ratios what is the best value machine for the money. I came to the conclusion that it was  The T2 but blow me down with a bellows just as I make my decision they up the price £200 quid for what is basically the same machine. I like the look of the new T2 limited but am again in that situation of now what do I purchase as I feel not right about buying something that two weeks ago was two hundred quid less new. I just feel so reluctant to buy a new machine at the moment. :o :o

paul can i ask what machine you're using now?

Yes, Geoff, you are right. But, you don't see Regton throwing their teddies out of the pram if you import a Garrett or XP.

Also, I have heard so many horror stories about JA lack of customer care and after sales service. They're great when you buying and after that you are alone.

I prefer Evergreen and Detecnicks although I appreciate there are other firms out there that are excellent as well.
Coinshooter was good but he's now closed down for personal reasons.

I think there's a good Forum debate on Good Service from Dealers and Recommended Dealers!

Regton may not throw the toys out, but they still won't touch them if they go wrong. Yes I agree Detecnicks and Evergreen are some of the best, but unfortunately they have to buy from JA and Regton so they can only do what their retailer agreement allows.

i.ve allways found pepsi piro to be cheaper than all other retailers and not by a few pence

A Minelab Quattro Paul and I am more than happy with it but just want a second machine. Finding a good mixture with it including hammered but not the small hammered, just the larger Liz one 6 pences etc. But on a test bed it does find the smaller ones. As the Quattro gets older at some time it will fail so just want a new machine for main use and back up with the Quattro and would be keen on the challenge of a new machine.

Two or three months down the line I have come to the conclusion from reviews ( but are they paid to say what they say),  

When i questioned the validity of certain posts trying to in my opinion to over exagerate
the performance of the e.trac on mlo, I received a very nasty bloody nose ! Yet there were a lot of people who followed the posts and bought this e.trac and also sold them on a later. (varying excuses too heavy ) ! for one.

We all have to be very weary of what we buy especially when detectors are £1000 plus, very careful indeed.

How often do we use a second detector ?

Do we buy another detector because we think we are missing targets that other detectors appear to find.
Well we read that they do, but on their own fields, I can understand how frustrating and worrying it can be when trying to buy a new detector.

I think you have to rely more so on close detecting buddies than written reviews in mags.

It has always been said in fishing that in tackle shops there are things to catch fish and things to catch fishermen, I suppose the same rings true with metal detectors

Well said that man  ;D ;D

detecting is the same as fishing exept you go looking for the fish instead of the fish coming to you

metaphorically speaking

way over my head metaphorically speaking of course

I believe the Etrac is "probably" the best commercial detector out there a far as depth and sensitivity are concerned and for those moving from the Explorer it is an obvious improvement, But if moving from other makes and models the difference can be off-putting as far as the slow recovery, weight and dodgy audio.
It is a very versatile machine that can be adapted to the majority of sites, which unfortunately is one thing that most users fail to do and wonder why on some sites the guy with a tesoro is making more finds than them.
It definitely fits in to the Dedicated user category and as such is not (in my opinion) as much fun to use as other makes.

Geoff says that the "E Trac" is "probably the best commercial detector out there a far as depth and sensitivity are concerned ."

Sorry Geoff ,but i could very easily take issue with that statement.
The reasons being I bought the E trac on a certain High flying Minelab users recommendation  at the time who is well known on all the forums as a respected detectorist.

I had previously at one time in the past,been a Explorer user, & always having one amongst my detectors.Not using them much eventually though ,because of continuing shoulder and elbow problems occurring the last few years (frozen shoulder & Tennis elbow)
I bought The E Trac, on the recommendation it was a lot "lighter" than the previous Explorers were.
On buying it i discovered the weight "Loss" was marginal. Yes, weight had been reduced by the Pro coil  but not to the extent that it now felt much lighter to use.
 I found the Menu system a bit better to scroll through and navigating the menu had gone for the better.
 But to say it was deeper or more sensitive is i`d say "debatable". Very debatable.
 You see , people say Its deeper ! but what i`d like to know , it , what are they basing their "Facts" on ?
 Are they basing it on head to head comparison with another person next to them with an SE or a Explorer 2 ,comparing signals as they are found ?
Or, are they simply as most do ,and being "suggestive" in so much that they "think" its deeper & more sensitive from their past recollections of what they achieved with their past SE or Explorer 2 ?
 If that`s the case, then all i can say is "recollections" can be often Jaded and slightly inaccurate on details.

Any new detector bought I`d say,has a psychological persuasion effect on the mind.
It says ,"this IS going to be deeper, and more sensitive," because it has to convince  you that you`ve spent X number amount of pounds wisely and you need to convince yourself that you`ve done the right thing. After all you`ve bought the biggest and best !!! So you`ve been told by the media.
 Hence the mind is telling you " yes, your getting better depths "

In reality though , its not quite the case. Your more than likely getting the same, but slight enhancements on occasions. This when recognised, immediately smothers over any other "similar" findings, and immediately goes to the for front of your mind saying "See! it IS deeper and better than my previous detector".

I DID get shut of my E trac because of mainly, the weight issue.
But in the time i had it ,i used the recommended settings given by the guys in the "know" and i can honestly say, It didn`t impress me enough to WANT to keep it, and put any medical problems to one side .
I have used the Minelab Explorers over a good length of time and i can put my hand on my heart and tell any one, that i found less with the Explorer than i have with my F75 . When i started using the Goldmaxx even i found more with that, than i ever did with the Explorers.
The Explorers work on the Multi frequency application. They start off sending out 28 frequency's, which in turn diminish down to around 5 which then end up with actually one or two as the final BEST FREQUENCY that the processor sees as right for that ground.
The processor will not always get it absolutely right though.
 Lets do a scenario that says when searching, the Explorer or E trac send out their 28 freq`s and end up on a particular piece of land beneath you on 3kHZ and 10 kHz as the processors chosen best Data for that ground .
Yes you will get the deeper bigger target by courtesy of the 3kHz freq. BUT!! you also might miss the Tiny Edward the first farthing that is sitting there ,because the Processor didn`t see fit to send "on that occasion" ,the 18 kHz freq out beneath you needed to get that tiny coin .
Hence YOU MISS the farthing.

 Now ! along you come the next day with your F75 or your Goldmaxx Power with your higher freq,and you`ll go over that same ground and GET the Edward the first Farthing. You then think . "How the hell did i miss that yesterday with my bestest biggest  Minelab " ?
 The answers simple. The Processor didn`t get it right on the instant you were there yesterday.

It really is a case of getting it right in your head what should you be using on the day. And thats another discussion. ;D
All i can say is since i no longer use the big Minelabs, I detect with a more confident air about me ,that i DO find more with my F75 than i ever did with the big Minelabs and thats certified by the finds not thoughts. And unfortunately for the Minelab Explorer and E trac owners ,that is a fact .

" i must also add ,that this is just my thoughts on this discussion and others might find different, so its all down to what you interpret in your findings that you can comment on . it doesn`t nessesarily mean its absolute ".

Brilliant post Jed and I am in agreement with 99% of what you say, but even If the Explorers reduce their effective signals to 2 wavelengths then you are covering more basis. I do think that FBS technology has gone as far as it is going to go and with improvements in signal processing on single frequency machines it will be left behind. In the majority of cases detectors are not technically detecting at any greater depth than they were 30 years ago but the returning signal processing has improved making the weaker signals workable.
To use an analogy related to photography, If you buy a top quality zoom lens for £1000 and set it at 135mm now go and buy a medium to top quality 135mm lens, the fixed lens will always be better quality, so as with FBS it's a case of "a jack of all trades, master of none".
I have 2 Etracs primarily for the 60-61 Research group as no other machine can give the target id we need (we are looking for iron), but I personally prefer using the SE and I couldn't really tell you why.
I do find the blinkered "minelab is god" mentality of some users (and you know the ones I'm talking about) to be off putting. One thing I have found but got shot down for even suggesting is that the EXP/Etrac's have different responces at different sweep speeds dependant on the target and that your very sweep speed may be influencing what frequency's the machine decides to use. Thus you are in effect using an Xterra but changing the frequency by the coil speed. Unfortunately "dark age mentality" rules and therefore Slow and low works so it is the only way.

The truth is we are very quickly reaching maximum depth with VLF technology as the laws of Physics denote it's limits, the Etrac, V3, Deus and the F75 ltd/T2ltd are using current technology and adding bells and whistles.
Had research gone in to the PI system rather than the easier to manipulate VLF in the 1970's then we could be detecting at  only dreamed of depths.
At the end of it all, as many already know it is about feeling comfortable with the machine you are using both physically and mentally and enjoying using it.

Thanx Geoff and i would also agree with your post.
Isn`t it great when straight talking is discussed and not brand ideology or Loyalty is put first before the true facts.
And yes! i do know who your referring to. I read your posts on the Minelab forum and i know what your referring to.

well you learn something new everyday never looked at it like that (frequencies). dont take this the wrong way im asking because i dont know but when you say it could be in not the best frequency so miss a small farthing yet pick up something beneath it thats bigger, couldnt it work the other way also? im just asking thats all as the more you know the better you should be (in theory anyway lol)

Yes Paul it can work both ways. I have over simplified the facts a bit but the swing speed is a factor along with mineralisation, emi and moisture content, the slow and low approach allows time for the Exp/Etrac to (hopefully) run through its bank of frequencies and give you a reading, plus if you are using quick mask it allows time for the iron recovery.
unfortunately the slower swing speed favours the lower frequencies and so deeper but also larger targets, these machines have now become almost legendary for not being able to find small pieces of gold ie a chain or back of an ear stud. but these can register in the right circumstances purely by increasing the sweep speed, unfortunately this means you would have to cover the same ground 2 or 3 times to utilise all the frequencies.

As Jed has said they only truly work on a few wavelengths this can shown by the fact that they have terrible "in air tests" the machines rely on what they call the "ground matrix", this is the machine basically measuring the ground to decide which frequencies to use, take it away from the ground and it becomes confused.

I would like to hear from Kev casa dos whether he agrees with you on this, what sort of swing speed was he doing when he found his gold coin ?

What frequencies detect the small gold chain for example ?

Its  an interesting topic, i know for a fact my se does not respond the same over freshly ploughed or turned soil, though i still found a roman brooch on freshly rolled soil, though the tone was different from what i would have expected.

and more importantly, I wonder if Des Dunne would agree with these opinions !

As an edit ; i am having difficulty in getting my head round this, as we are constantly being told to sweep low and slow, it has been proved many a time very small targets such as minums etc, you will miss them if you swing to fast, got me thinking now Geoff  ;D

Very interesting guys  I can see what you mean and I genuinely mean that, Would explain quite a bit acctually.

Some excellent posts by Goeff and Jeb of which I agree with.

Quite an interesting subject.

I'm not an electronics expert but am always reading anything to do with metal detecting as I find it a fascinating subject. Any literature from or by Minelab gives (to me anyway) the impression that 28 frequenies are sent out and processed.
This is true. 28 Frequencies are sent out but only the strongest ones are used. In effect the weakest are "processed out" so that Minelabs claim cannot be disputed.

However, to my mind the statement by Minelab is misleading as it gives you the impression that all 28 frequencies are sent out and processed simultaneously.

As discussed by Geoff/Jeb (and other published articles) we know that this is not the case.

As I understand it, the Whites Spectra V3 is the only machine on the market that simultaneoulsy sends out 3 frequencies and simultaneously processes 3 frequencies. Hence it has excellent ability to work near iron and pull up different metals/sizes at different depths.

Another interesting point is that at a typical rally possibly at least 50% of the machines are the Minelab Multi-frequency machines. This in turn means that it is statistically likey that most finds will be made with these machines compared to other brands. Other brand users see that it is the Minelabs that have pulled most of the good finds and it is possible they have their minds turned that their machine isn't as good.

I'm not saying the Minelabs are bad machines. I've already said that possibly they are the proven best all rounders but, as Geoff said, I don't think they are the master of all situations.

I think it's accepted they don't like disturbed soil and tend to struggle near iron.

I just wish Minelab were more open and honest with their advertising and artices. It's not even public knowledge what processors are in the Explorers, E Trac or Safari as they won't divulge. Other brands will give this information, so what are Minelab hiding? I suspect it may be the same processor in all their machines just driven by different software. I don't know.

As Geoff said, I think it's getting to the limits with present technology as to the depths we can get with discrimination and that pulse or ground radar is the way forward.

Minelab FBS may be on it's last legs unless they can add significant processing power to actually 'properly process' all returned signals.

As I have said I have somewhat over simplified the whole thing, When I said larger or smaller I am referring to the target signal not the physical size of the find, minims are still quite big in signal terms, Cut halfs being small. You would have to ask Kev what depth it was at as well, also Kevs coin was quite large so is not the best test. I am not saying they are blind at the wrong speed, just that they can focus better on different targets at different speeds.
I'm not sure Des has done that much testing on Sweep speeds, but I shall email him to see if he has a view. Unfortunately I asked him face to face if the etrac sent and received 27 signals simultaneously and, well the guy is wasted he should be a politician. and after 10 minute explaining, managed to not answer the question. But in his defence he does work for minelab so I wouldn't expect him to say anything that wasn't the company line.

Yeah ! sometimes its hard to stay on focus when he was explaining things. He knows minelab detectors though !

I think at the end of the day, when most targets are within the top 8", most detectors will find the goodies, just that some might give a couple more inches, and only the end user can decide whether he or she shells out £1000 plus for these extra inches.

The debate as to which detector is best will run along time, because of all the
variations and different levels of expertise that are encountered on the field.

 My friends who both have explorer xs, are still finding the goodies, gold included, they re using one of the first explorers. I sometimes think those earlier detectors were the best  ;D, and all later models are revamped versions !

Well I got a reply from Des, so here you go for what it's worth.

Hey Geoff,

Happy New Year!

Yeah, during prototyping phase we monitored that aspect of operation not only with the stock coil but with other coils as well (as available at the time)
Right now I can't put my finger on that research (archived)
However, I can tell you that I'm working on a few additional articles and plan to include a section on sweep speed etc.
I also covered that aspect of operation on X-Terra.
From memory, I can say that ET likes all sweep speeds but combined with ground filters, patterns etc it would have to be examined closely.

Regards

Des Dunne

.........I think that's a waffled "I don't know" ;D

edited by me, felt my sense of humour might not be shared !

Though tis a strange response from a field application specialist  ::)

 ;D