DetectingWales.com

This should be an interesting post im putting on here for sure ??? ??? ??? ??? ::)


Taken from Stackyard.com


Permits for Metal Detecting on Farm Land?
2009-11-26

Rural specialists George F. White are calling for a debate on whether an entry fee or permit could be a way of managing the metal detecting phenomenon.

Nigel Foster
(http://www.stackyard.com/news/2009/11/farmers/nigel_foster.jpg)
 

As has been highlighted in the news this week, metal detecting is more popular than ever. And with treasure hunter Terry Gilbert reputed to be in line for a seven figure sum for a hoard of Anglo-Saxon gold he found earlier this year, the trend looks set to continue. While landowners stand to take 50% of any treasure found, they also have the potential challenge of large numbers of people digging up their property.

Metal detecting has been rising in popularity since the 1970’s and testament to ever improving technology, 98% of metal objects are currently found in this way. Under the 1996 Treasure Act, any objects found are valued by the Treasure Valuation Committee with payments divided equally between the land owner and the finder. Even if an object is not declared a ‘treasure’, this tends to be the accepted norm.

This obviously gives impetus to farmers, landowners and treasure hunters to make an agreement before any detecting takes place. In addition, as a valuation may be less if the finder hasn’t sought permission from the landowner; a permit ensures this has been done. Indeed, some land already requires a permit for example all treasure hunting on our foreshores requires a free permit from the Crown Estates however introducing fee paying permits on private land is a new idea.

Nigel Foster of George F. White comments, “Recent press reports on spectacular finds are likely to inspire a new generation of treasure hunters. Many land owners, stand to benefit not just financially if treasure is found but also because they may find out more about the history of the land itself. However they need to balance this with the fact that there may be increasing numbers of people on the land which can be difficult to manage during key times like harvest. Looking at charging a fee for a permit is potentially a way for landowners to be able to know who is on their fields as well as adding a small stream of extra income. By advertising these permits treasure hunters will know they are welcome and they will get the optimum valuation on finds as they have full permission to be on the land.”

For people who have been inspired to give metal detecting a go, one of the best sources of information is The National Council for Metal Detecting website www.ncmd.co.uk (http://www.ncmd.co.uk). As Nigel advises,”For anyone who is interested in finding out more about treasure hunting and what it entails whether they are a farmer or a metal detector I would direct them to this site. It contains details on the history of metal detecting, how to find a good site and the current law on claims as well as a Code of Practice and free liability insurance for their members.”

Anyone interested in discussing the idea of diversification into this area can contact Nigel Foster at the Bedale office of George F. White on Tel. 01677 425301.


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i quote     " some land already requires a permit for example all treasure hunting on our foreshores requires a free permit from the Crown Estates "


But what if im  looking for fishing weights instead of treasure  ?   ::)        having said that i spose i may as well get one if its free lol... :D

Its been touted for a while. Thin end of the wedge if it happens.

As soon as the media show a recent hoard been found, it was only a matter of time before these people decide, there's an earner there  :-\
Their on about doing a similar thing with sea fishing  :-\
What are they going to sting us on next  ???

he wants to get a life  :-\ like i said before all to do with do gooders  :( wheres it going to end  ??? a ban maybe

i think there may be benefits to his idea. if permits were issued to recognised detector groups ONLY, then it would mean that lone detectorists would have to join such groups and in return the groups could then monitor what is being found and recorded.

this would enhance the standing of groups with the farming community and could lead to more land becoming available once the reputation and standards is set.

it would also isolate even further the nighthawks and hopefully in return for the permit idea, legislation would be toughened to tackle such irresponsible detectorists.

i'm all for encouraging the hobby, but too many people are joining it, thinking they are going to get rich, rather than for the reasons of recording our nations heritage and history.

how long will it be before they start charging you for these permits. another stealth tax

sounds like a good idea. why shouldn't a charge be levied. it was in the past!!!

in fact why not go further and insist that an extra charge of 25% should be levied on all artefacts sold on auction sites!!!!  [can't see it happening - but it may help stop the raping of the nations heritage for personal gain!]

I,m with Stig  ;) on this one !! I still class myself as an independent detectorist in the sense Imainly go detecting alone ;D no one should be made to join a club etc against their will BUT I recommend everyone joins the F.I.D  ;) or N.C.M.D  ;) the last we need now is bloody permits >:( if we let this happen we,ll be going down the same old road to further legislation again :o and we definately don,nt want that >:(

if you got nighthawkers plundering now, you dont honestly think that they are going to buy a permit do you?. Im all for joining a club as it benefits the dectorist plus the hobby in general but if people want to be independent (I am by the way). then they should. Seems to me another way to make money off joe public.

Why should any independent detectorist have to join a club,thats a bit elitist Allan,and your not seriously thinking a permit will stop nighthawkers who at present detect without permission from the land owners in order to steal from them,do you really think a nighthawker is going to pay to detect ?,and what about those of us who don't live near any of the clubs.

i am with stig,dai,and paul/lisa,no permit will stop nighthawkers,i think some of these people are just trying to bring us to book,have our names to hand,lets not forget the honesty that been shown and the contribution that  have reported to museums and archaeologist so they know where to go.(viv)

Just been thinking to myself..... ok so if a permit was required to detect on land who is actually going to pay to police the land ? The government ? maybe the enviroment agency ? The police i doubt very much and for good reasons too, The farmer ? Thinking about it now its not practical to enforce permits ....where do you buy a permit ? The post office ? The farmer ? Even that would cost money to set up, as in papers etc .... at the end of the day.... AS LONG AS YOU HAVE PERMISSION THEN WHY A PERMIT ?  If it was cost effective to bring in rod licenses for sea angling they would have done it years ago....... but how do you police so many miles of coastline ?  :-\

some good posts in reply to my post and i thank you all for that.

i anticipated the alternative repsonse and appreciate the time taken to put forward your comments. i think we have to start with the questions, 'what are the reasons for taking up the hobby and why?'

we also need to consider the heritages position and that is how do we ensure that our heritage is recorded to the benefit of the future researchers. The PAS is a step in the right direction, however there are many many detectorists who have their own private collections which have not been recorded anywhere.

there is also the concern of the selling of our heritage where the artefacts [which haven't been recorded] could end up abroad, lost forever.  

this raises the question of how do the authorities and the hobby groups, can work together to ensure a high degree of professionalism from  both sides. if this involves regulation then so be it. i am convinced that this is more liely to happen as more and more people take up the hobby without even considering their responsibilites in recording finds.

isn't it a shame that so many wonderful and personal private collections, will probably never ever see the light of day by joe public. i find that aspect very sad, as in most cases the collection is likely to be sold off at the end of a persons life.

anyway, keep the comments coming and maintain the politeness in the posts.

cheers

alan

Hallo Alan.... Before joining DW.com  I had never heard of the FLO or the treasure act or anything at all to do with reporting a potential historical find..... my point here mate is that maybe a little education is whats needed for new folks taking up the hobby.... to encourage the hobby but also protect our herritage ...... i will be honest mate if i had found an old gold coin it would be sitting upstairs now in my coin box and not reported or anything , simply because i didnt know what to do  :-\  Good job you guys and ladies, thanks for what ive learned so far   ;)

i agree with the idea of a training programme for all detectorists who wish to take up\ the hobby -- perhaps thats the way forward, one must do such a course before being issued with a permit which allows them to by a detector!!

thank you for making your point, it's a very valid one

sounds nuts to me sorry for being so blunt but it does. Anyway who watches the watcher?

Allan if you read the recent amendments to the Coroners act and the future amendments to the Treasure Act these fears of yours are allready being tackled,quite a few changes to tackle the selling of artifacts,As for these amazing collections we have hidden away i wish i had one,lol,most of the finds that a lot of us make are under 200 years old and of little interest to the PAS scheme.How many museums have vaults full of items never seen buy the public,and they really do have some amazing PRIVATE collections. :)

i agree simon, i am very concerned about the closure of rural museums by local authorities - who in return sell of [via auction] the artefacts which in some cases were, or are, on permanent loan.

there are quite a few archives being closed by local authorities as they struggle to balance their books.

again, thank you for taking time to reply, it is much appreciated and adds another aspect to the discussion.

cheers

Going back to the article (read this excerpt below)


They only have "the potential challenge of large numbers of people digging up their property" if .

a] They give permission for large numbers of detectorists to detect on their land.

b] Nighthawkers decide to target their land.

The first one is a no brainer - don't give permission to large amounts of detectorists. the second problem is nothing at all to do with the majority of Detectorists as we always gain permission. As has been previously stated, in this thread, a permit will only affect the law abiding detectorists, not the nighthawkers.

Nighthawking is Tresspass and should be dealt with by the police. Taking artifacts whilst Nighthawking is theft and again should be dealt with by the police. No different than the theft of a Tractor or any other item of farm paraphernalia.

Registering our finds on the other hand is a totally different story and needs a different plan of attack, I don't see how making someone buy a permit will affect their decision on wether to disclose their find to a F.L.O. It is a problem that needs addressing though because its down that road the attack will come from , when (not if) it comes

This is just one of the big problems they have Lovedoc,  who's going to police it,  where's the extra money coming from ect ect,  as Mike said, a charge for the permits will follow,  but that money won't cover it,
Alan

              I personally object to being called a "treasure hunter" ,and  I think this is a term , that does not fit well with most " detectorists.  A detectorist and a treaure hunter are two different things in my book . I go detecting to find pieces of history that in some small way add to the origins of all of us , if by luck I stumble across something of great value , then great , thats a bonus . I have never sold anything that I have recovered. A treasure hunter to me is someone who is solely out to make money from the hobby , which is usually were the bad press comes from .   

that was a well thought out and constructed reply Rob, thank you.

alan [sodbuster] - i too have concern over the use of the name treasure hunter. i think this seriously detracts from the good name and actions that many detectorists, hold.

the issue of selling for personal gain, is one that will be debated over many years to come. everyone will have their own views on the matter. Rob's point about recording is a serious one. How do we educate those who take up the hobby in their roles and responsibilities in recording finds, 10 fig grid refs etc. Portable Antiquity scheme, The treasure Act, role of coroners,  etc etc.

Al [pastfinders] comment about policing the hobby and the extra costs involved, is well made.

keep the comments coming, this is turning into a very interesting debate.

cheers


[yet another] Alan

Quite a debate.

The rank and file metal detectorist out in all weathers and mostly producing buttons and buckles with the occasional hammy, ummm !

I think once these so called treasure hunters who think that on every farmers field lies  a fortune, faces the reality of what is mostly found, quite a few will give it up !

As for scheduled monuments being attacked by night hawkers surely thats for English heritage etc to provide there own security ! It maybe against the law, howmany signs are displayed saying ' no detecting ' !  

I also agree it is up to the landowners who or howmany detect on his land, it isnt up to a club to dictate where people detect.

If the courts wont prosecute and or make examples of culprits like recent cases, there is no deterrent.

I agree with others, I like being independant, and dont see why I should be regulated and have to join a club.

Though having to buy a pemit only highlights that you detect, doesnt watch your finds or what is done with them, or where you are detecting.

Its a little like the gun licences, made life difficult for the law abiding, didnt stop the thugs getting their guns though !

When you view all forums and see the artefacts / coins found, one does wonder what happens to these finds, when really and truely most should be in a museum  ;D.