DetectingWales.com

I've heard many many opinions and stories of the Treasure Trove process over this last year, many of which haven't been encouraging I have to say.

Recently I have been lucky enough to find my own potential treasure in the shape and form of a possible 12th Century Silver ring with what could be a Knights Templar design on it. I vaguely recognised the design as at the time I was reading The illustrated Davinci Code and have read loads on the Knights Templars. The other detectorists out with me that day - namely Waltonbasinman- (Paul) , Casa-Dos(Kev) and Coleggwent(Phil) alerted me to the fact it could be treasure trove - Good to be out with experienced detectorists!



When I'd finally stopped running around in circles with my top over my head - scaring the local animal and people population, It soon dawned on me that I knew absolutely nothing about the Treasure Trove process, so thats where this thread comes in, as I experience and learn the process I will enter it as a diary format below. If it helps people understand the Treasure Trove process then I'll have achieved what I've set out to do. If on the otherhand the ring turns out to be a more recent reproduction ring then this could turn out to be a rather short entry.




Friday 30th October 2009

Found Silver Ring on pasture in Herefordshire and it has been Identified as potential Treasure Trove.


Saturday 31st October 2009

After trying several times to contact the farmer by phone last night, I finally managed to get hold of him today and informed him of the "ring find". He was very interested and expressed an interest to see the ring "in the flesh" so to speak. We arranged a day and I went on to explain the process that would take place, to the best of my knowledge.

Monday 2nd November 2009

After a bit of Web Searching I got hold of Peter Reavill's E mail address (finds liaison officer for Herefordshire). I set about Emailing him some details and pictures of the ring, I also Emailed a copy of this Email to Mark Lodwick (finds Liason officer for my area based at Cardiff museum).

Tuesday 3rd November 2009

Reply from Mark Lodwick today as follows:-



Phoned the coroners office as requested by Mark Lodwick, they registered my report but have said they're happy to wait for the official report from Mark.



Wednesday 4th November 2009

Returned to Herefordshire today with Phil Coleggwent, met the farmer and showed him the ring. He and his wife were fascinated with the Ring and pleased to have an insight into their land. Returned to the find-spot with Phil and obtained its GPS position- This I Emailed to Mark in the evening.


Reply off Peter Reavill today as follows:-




Tuesday 12th November 2009

Email off Peter Reavill in reply to the details of the findspot and Pictures of the ring:-




Wednesday 25th November 2009

Handed the ring in to Mark Lodwick tonight at the R.A.R.E meeting.
He had a good look at it and in his words the ring "is the real McCoy"
So thats reassuring. He also sticks by his initial Date of 12th Century.
He explained the process to me thoroughly and has said that he will keep me
up to date on any progress.


Tuesday 15th December 2009

Went to Museum of Wales today and met Mark Lodwick. He handed me a
preliminary treasure report. Tomorrow 16th December, Mark and the ring
are going to the British Museum in London, there to stay (The ring not Mark)
until the curator either confirms Marks findings or comes up with his own.

Without going into too much detail there is only two other similar 12th Century
rings of similar styling to the one I have found - one of these being a fragmented ring.


Thursday 24th December 2009

Received a letter off Caroline Barton today. Assistant Registrar at The British Museum.

They confirm that The British Museum is now in receipt of the ring and go on to explain the
procedure from here on in.

I'll itemise the process below:-

• Examine the ring to ascertain the likeliness that it is Treasure

• Determine whether any museum wishes to acquire the ring. If no museum wishes to acquire the ring it will be disclaimed and returned to the finder once the landowners permission has been obtained

• If a museum wishes to acquire the ring a report will then be written for the coroner, part of which may include a 'non-destructive scientific analysis of the ring'. The finder will receive a copy of this report. A coroners inquest will also be requested at this time

• The Coroner takes over from here and will make a decision as to wether the ring is treasure, who found it, where and when the ring was found

• If the ring is declared treasure it then passes to the Valuation stage of which The British Museum is then responsible for.

• Should the British Museum be interested in acquiring the ring for themselves the valuation will be taken out of their hands and passed to The Department for Culture Media and Sport.

Wednesday 4th November 2009

Received  a copy letter sent to the Coroner in Hereford today. The British Museum has agreed with Mark Lodwicks initial report of the ring and has requested that the coroner holds an inquest and inform British Museum of its outcome.

The letter goes on to inform the coroner that a museum has already expressed a wish to aquire the Ring should it be declared as treasure.


Tuesday 2nd February 2010

I received a phonecall today off the Herefordshire Coroners secretary explaining why they'd been involved and the extent of the coroners involvment in the treasure process.

She went on to explain that both myself and the farmer would receive a letter off the coroner which I needed to read , sign and send back.


Saturday 22nd May 2010

Received a letter offf the Deputy Coroner for Hereford today, informing me that they have now set a date of 25th June 2010 for the Inquest Hearing. It goes on to explain that I am not formally required to attend the inquest but if I'd like to I'd be more than welcome. Its a no brainer for me, probably will be my only chance to see through a treasure porocess in its entirety, so I'll be attending.


Friday 25th June 2010

Inquest went ahead minus myself today, typical waited months for the case only to have my neck locked up and unable to drive.


Wednesday 30th June 2010

Received letter off the coroners today, stating that the inquest had now confirmed the Ring to be treasure and that they had informed The British Museum of their decision


Thursday 2nd September 2010


Received a letter from the British Museum today confirming that they had set a provisional treasure valutation for the ring, this valuation will then be finalised in a meeting of the Treasure Valuation Commitee on the 1st October 2010.

The following is the Provisional Treasure Valuation.











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great diary SIR TAFF, iv read that with great interest so keep it going for all of us to read
and a great idea as well ;)

Great idea Rob - well done for posting the details. I genuinely hop you have a far better experience than I have had. It was all fine with me until the valuation! ;D

Enjoy the probate hearing - you'll love it. If you want some company and as its held only 10 minutes from my office, I can join you if you like.

Cheers
Neil

 ;)

Hope it gets sorted out quickly for you Rob :), nice one, oh and Rob, after the valuation and payout . hope it's a MILLION :D , mines a minelab mate  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
all the best Ace ;)

great stuff rob !..this could be a good record of events for all us "potential" treasure finders !.. ;D ;D...i wish you well with this project....and the TT.....byron

Keep it  going Rob,eagerly awaiting the next entries.
Al :) :)

The diary thread is a great idea mate, interesting stuff mate, good on ya !  ;)

I wish you well with your Quest Rob

I know many have some horror storys to tell about the treasure Process

Thanks for posting your treasure act journey

all the best Phil

One thing is for sure Rob, by the time the Ring gets through the system which will be about another 800 years the Valuation will be greater due to the increase in age of the Ring  ;D

Just kidding it won't take quite that long im sure.

Steve.

I thought this was a good Idea Rob and you have started it off well and this will give a good Insight into the whole process of Treasure Trove. Well done fella

Great write up Rob,well worth doing- the ring could be unique, often the valuation is the sticky point and sometimes its hard to get your own opinions/ valuations  across should you object to the initial valuation from the treasure valuation commitee - It may be worth contacting dealers and auction houses and sending them some good quality photos as soon as you know the age and  details of the ring well before the valuation meeting so you have a ball park figure of the value  and the evidence to present if  its required .Stay one step ahead  ;) ;)

It is a lovely ring Rob,having been through the process twice any thing you need to know just ask,if i can help i will,As for time scale in Wales both mine took about 12 -14 months just for the coroners inquest to be held and then another month or so before the TVC made an offer,the first case i disclaimed the reward in favour of a certificate from the Department for culture,media and sport that took another 2 years to arrive lol ::) so it can be a very drawn out process.
Just two minor points firstly it would be worth your while putting the 14 day notification to the Coroner in writting and sending it to him yourself that way he will have a written record,keep a copy for yourself and make sure its dated,secondly if the ring is silver which it looks like,any cleaning is ill advised as it could be used by the TVC to reduce the value,I'm not suggesting it has been wrongly cleaned but it is something to think about with Treasure finds and is clearly stated in the 1996 Treasure Act that finds of potential Treasure should not be cleaned,Hope that reads the way i meant it to and not as a lecture lol  :)

HI ROB.
THE RING IS A STUNNING FIND.
I HOPE ITS AS EARLY HAS WE ARE ALL HOPEING IT IS
I THINK IT WILL END UP IN THE MUSEUM ROB.
WE.LL SEE MATE.

rob brilliant find (i would have loved to see you running around) well done on the find and a great write up.(viv)

Hi Dave rather than lock it against replys which is what I initially decided to do, I decided to edit the post as new stuff happens. So instead of me posting numerous posts it will be one long edited post so it reads easy.

ok thanks rob i didn,t think that way

  **Updated Diary** 

***Diary Updated***

nice one rob did not think for 1 min it was modern and as i said to you on the day i found it  :-\  :D you found it sliped up there  ;D in my eyes it,s a four figure ring and i,ll still say it now its a outstanding find and a very inportant bit of history you will not find a ring like that one again if you live to be 300 well done again bob hope it turns out right for you  :-*

 ;D ROB iv got to go along with out friend MR COOOGGGGLLLLEEEE on that hope you get your just reward m8 ;)

That's your diary read, now wheres your little black book  with numbers to all those gorgeous women :D ;D

Bump for Terry

A cracking idea to keep a diary. I think any DW members who are lucky enough to find potential treasure should do the same. It may be useful in the future by detectorist to show apathy on behalf of the official side.
A friend has had two dealings with the process and on both occasions had problems at the valuation stage...and also, as said, it was a long drawn out process!
Good Luck!!

Diary updated.

Interesting update Rob - this is a really good idea!

I hope you have a decent outcome and no matter what do not accept their first offer - which will probably come in August 2013 if my experience was anything to go on!

Cheers
Neil

Still got everything crossed for you Rob. As Neil says will probably be at the BM for a while now before you hear anything but I really want you to be rewarded for your genuine enthusiasm for the hobby mate and hope its the first of plenty for you.

*Diary Updated*

good luck with the process rob..i hope you are lucky.......byron

yes good luck rob you deserve it butty.

Taff,   I have tried to find your diary,  but have not succeeded,  WHERE is it.
Kiwi Terry

it is very interesting to know what goers on well done rob
debs

Such a great find Rob and it will be great to see it on display.

Updated...... go to top

Its looking better all the time for you Rob, the wheels turn a lot quicker than some of the stories that we hear of.

I hate to play a role of a forum sceptic but Knights Templar (real ones, not Dan Brown variety ;) ) are one of my favourite subjects and I have never, in any literature on the subject, have come across similar ring. Templars were a monastic order and jewellery wearing was just not their thing, being impractical for a knight and somehow against their vows of poverty. Also the design of this signet does not look medieval and I was surprised when you wrote:


Is it possible for you to obtain any photos of those rings? To me this find looks modern and was perhaps connected with "templar or holy grail tourism", which is now so popular or, as a friend suggested, its design is reminiscent of coptic church, but also in a modern context. I am hoping that I'm wrong and that BM will date it as medieval, which would be really fantastic :)

I could not find any pics of the other two rings , but they are in the treasure reports online. There also a very similar ring in Cardiff museum. Same type of Cross on it.

Plus as any archaeologist would tell you its all about context. And the ring was found in an area rich with Templar history. i don't think it would have passed through the hands of the people it has if it wasn't the genuine article.

Hi MD, there are many believed templar rings in museums throughout Europe, one of which is below.
The crude manufacture on Taffs example is reminiscent of medieval workmanship.
I'm afraid there is no similarity to the coptic cross whose finials end in points and must by tradition contain a circle, but could be a similar Canterbury cross.
As you will know if you have read much on the subject, the medieval view of a  vow of poverty and ours is somewhat different. The templar knights were a minor element in the templar movement and it's still not fully understood if the ancillary staff also took the same vows. The templar movement was the richest organisation of it;s time, which became the main reason for it's eventual downfall.

Unfortunately we had literally hundreds cases of misjudged dates or even types of objects. Even BM had a few famous cock ups. Archaeologists are not infallible you know ;)
As regarding the context that is precisely why I wrote about a possibility of a modern "holy grail" tourist loosing it at exactly the type of site they are visiting after reading too many Dan Brown books 8) If on the other hand this ring was found with some other medieval bits next to it, then yes, we would have a proper archaeological context. I don't know what else was found on the trip so maybe Rob and other guys can check their finds bags as maybe they've got something else from the stated period. 

Chef - most of those rings are also called "crusader" rings as they probably date from the time of the crusades, but as far as I know there are no proven associations with the Templars. By that I mean positive grave find for example. Although it's not impossible that a ring like the one shown on your photo was worn by some Templar knight or serving brother, you will note a complete difference in styling. What Rob found is a typical heavy signet ring, not common in XII century.
And yes, Templars were rich as an order but individual brothers and knights carried only the basic possessions of their own and any display of wealth was frown upon by their superiors.
I really do hope the experts will be able to confidently state that it is indeed a XII century ring with Templar connection. To me personally, that would be sensational and great news :)

Even though it was found in the vicinity of an important Templar historical site. I personally do not believe the BM are going to say its owner was or was associated with the Knights Templar. Can it be dated to the 12th Century? Well apparenty the non invasive particle test they do can date it quite accurately from the build up of  inlaid niello on the ring.  As you can see in the above quote the designs on the ring only resembles Templar designs.

You're absolutely right Rob in saying that the BM won't be able to state for sure that it belonged to a Templar as it wasn't found in a Templar grave, but if they will date it as say XII/XIII century then, given the location, the likelihood of it belonging to one is very high indeed. Let's hope for the best :)

Updated click link to go to Diary.................... http://www.detectingwales.com/index.php?topic=5182.msg48552#msg48552 (http://www.detectingwales.com/index.php?topic=5182.msg48552#msg48552)

I cant believe it takes this long to sort out the treasure process if it wasn't for you it would still be in the ground where no one could enjoy it.
While the suits deliberate i bet its stuck in some dusty old draw in the vaults of a museum
You can see why Detectorists Sell they're finds on Auction sites or Markets like Abergaveny or that one in Cardiff that i cant remember the name of.

I read this a few months ago from a book written by a very influential Detectorist
Treasure Trove:
 "This came about as an excuse to raise capital rather than preserving antiquites.
When Queen Elizabeth 1 was down on her last few coppers,she passed the law that any gold or silver found buried belongs to her, or as we now say the Crown"

Phil Jones
"Fighing the Power"  :P
 

Updated click link to go to Diary.................... http://www.detectingwales.com/index.php?topic=5182.msg48552#msg48552 (http://www.detectingwales.com/index.php?topic=5182.msg48552#msg48552)

GREAT NEWS ROB.AND A GREAT DIARY I MUST SAY.
WELLDONE TAFF BUTTY.

Updated , valuation received from British Museum.

Click--->http://www.detectingwales.com/index.php?topic=5182.msg48552#msg48552 (http://www.detectingwales.com/index.php?topic=5182.msg48552#msg48552)

hi rob, thats a beutifull ring which you are lucky to have ,well done fella, if i have read your diary properly and the said price is £200 valuation{which i think is ludicrous as looking at the ring i would personally say its worth a lot more}can i direct your attention to a find made in the searcher magazine {pg 17 sept 2010} that has a very similar look and dates to the 12th cent  and is valued at least 3 times as much,hope this helps in your battle with the t.c...........paul.

that value is to cheap... keep hold of it ..or seek  more realistic value.

i'd give you £250 for it rob !!!

Surely a ring of that quality and rarity is worth more than £200, however it doesnt surprise me at all, I have a medieval gold ring set with sapphire and garnet, going through the treasure process at the moment. For some reason i recieved 2 provisional valuations from the British museum. one for £4000 the other for £800  ???, How they could be so far apart is beyond me.
Good luck with the rest of the process Rob, great diary by the way.
John.

Nice work on the diary of this find and the process through to the final valuation (which seems quite mean IMHO), Rob, best wishes, Bob