DetectingWales.com

Morning all

Yesterday I received a provisional treasure valuation from our friends at the British Museum. Some of you may remember I found a ring last August in the Vale of Glamorgan and its taken until now for the financial offer to come through.
What is your opinions on the valuation offered?

The description they sent me is as follows:
The decorative form and shape of the ring indicates that it probably dates to the period 1500-1550. The band width is 4.7mm, diameter is 19mm, weight 4.6g,  Similar examples with zig-zag rather than parallel diagonal banding have been found in Buckinghamshire and onboard the Mary Rose, lost in the solent in 1545. A silver ring with the same design, though with rubies set in the diagonal bands was found at York Minster in 1829 (also attributed to 16th C).

Analysis using a CamScan MaXim 2040 analytical electron microscope and an energy dispersive X-Ray spectometer has ascertained that the ring is composed predominatly of silver (94-96%) with some debasement having small amounts of copper (3-5%)

The National Museum of Wales is interested in acquiring this item.

Now you all know I am not into detecting for the money, but I expect a fair reward for declaring the item.

They have offered £150 - £200. The basis for their valuation is Nigel Mills Artefacts book p52. I have the book and it was published in 1999. Their offer valuation reference is Christies Antique Jewellery Catalogue for 2005.

What do you think fair or not? I have until 12th August to contest it.

Thanks for reading
Neil

NIEL    NOT  BEING FUNNY  BUD   BUT I THINK I WOULD TELL  THEM  TO CRAM IT  UP THEIR ,,,,,,, WELL YA KNOW THE REST ,,,,,,,   A BEAUTIFUL SILVER RING  OF THAT AGE   AND IN THAT CONDITION ,,,,    YEAA   RIGHT     A FRIGGIN  NEW ONE   NOT  HALF  AS NICE   WOULD PROB COST MORE THAN THEYRE OFFERING ,,,,, MY  OPINION BUD  ,,,,,,     TELL THEM  TO SHOVE IT   AND  STOP   INSULTING YOU    >:( >:( >:( >:(

Personally Neil I agree with Digga.That is a right slap in the face.

I agree with you all lads - its really taking the piddle in my eyes and does not encourage one to declare finds, ahem ::)

Stig - I don't want to sell it to them, I would much rather keep it, but I have no choice under the Treasure Act to eventually accept an offer - I am in the process of drafting a letter at the moment.

I have always had a figure in my head for what I think its worth and its not outlandish, just a fair price, which I personally don't think £150-£200 is.

Has anyone else disputed Treasure Valuations and had a success story? I would be really interested to hear if you have.

A not happy
Neil >:(

Neil did you get an independant valuation in the two weeks grace you had ? If  so can you use that as evidence?

No unfortunately Rob I never did get an independent valuation. I suppose I should have. Any experiences with this anyone?

Cheers
Neil

Well all my treasure find to date so far , I've had independently valued its worked out like this so far

B = British museum Valuation
i = Independant Valuation
A = Actual Valuation
M= Money gained
N= Number of finds

This in turn work out to

B+i / 2 (N) =M

Therefore my money to date is       0+0 /2 (0) = 0                         Total = £0

I hope that explains everything.  ::)

The experts always suggest that you get an independant value Neil,   at least it would be up to date mate  lol,  that one is 4 years out of date,
Alan

I am new to detecting,but i definatly agree with digga.Tell them to shove it.
Taking into consideration that the value of precious metals has risen dramatically since 1999 and 2005.(their valuation source)
And the fact that the ring is in such good condition.
I know it is an artefact or treasure/and that you aint in it for the money,but in my opinion,they are tryin to rip you off.

Is it possible to offer the ring to other museums before the deadline,as you have a full description from the museum and photos.
At least this way you could get a more accurate price.

I run to get a valuation before anything else. Having said that if you got to keep the ring and tried to sell it later to a dealer or at auction you would find its not worth that much. That is until they sell it on to a private buyer and the price will have rocketed.

There's a few Medieval rings at this dealers at the moment. http://time-lines.co.uk/medieval-rings-for-sale-3687-0.html (http://time-lines.co.uk/medieval-rings-for-sale-3687-0.html)    A few seem cheap and others rather expensive. Trouble is your up against it now for doing the right thing. If you had spent a week touring some dealers you would be in a much stronger position.

Their weak point is that they have admitted they don't have a true value by quoting a price spread. I would press for more.

tell them to shove it mate. they done me out of money aswell
dont let them do it to you.

hi neil, i recently had a problem with the valuation commitee, after waiting 2 years for my clothes fastener to go through the process i had a valuation which was very poor, they offered me £20 -£30. i actually laughed when i read it!!! then with some help from peter (doc) he got me some of the previous treasure act realeases and i used these as a reference to my finds value. after a few months they re-valued it at £160 which i was happy with but it could have been better due to the fact it was complete and had a makers mark which is scarce on medieval items. but considering the quality of your find, i would try to find similar ones that have gone throught the process and check their valuations & challenge their offer. hope you get its worth neil, cheers james

heres the fastener im refering to

WHERES THE PIC JAMES  ??? ???

lol i had probs with the file size.

I'm glad to hear my help made a difference James.

Neil - in order to get a better valuation, you need to be able to have evidence either of similar items sold on the open market, valuations from reputable dealers or details of previous similar rings that have gone through the Treasure Act process.

I challenged the valuation of my gold posy ring from several years ago by quoting previous TVC valuations, and the valuation was then increased.

I will have a look through previous Treasure Act reports to see if I can find anything similar.

Thanks Peter and James. I really appreciate any help from you.

The only vaguely similar ring I have managed to find is in the Medieval Artefact book. They quote one in the 2004 Treasure Report as well - but thats described as a broken piece of a Medieval Ring found in the vale - no picture or value. I have not been able to find anything similar. which in my eyes should increase the value. Plus it was found in Wales with no previous complete comparison to my knowledge from Wales.

From day one the Museum of Wales have expressed an interest to buy it immediately and I feel they are taking me for a ride and trying to get it on the cheap. Mark Lodwick eyes lit up and immediately said the museum would want it when I first showed it tohim. Dr Mark Redknap from MoW told me before and again after the Probate hearing that they were keen to get it and I quote " I can assure you it will be regularly displayed as we have no comparisson at the Museum of Wales!"

I naturally presumed it would be a fair price, which the valuation clearly is not. I expressed that I wanted it to stay in Wales rather than disappear into the vaults of the British Museum.

Any help from any quarters on this matter would be extremely appreciated.

Thanks lads. This kind of help is what Detectingwales.com is all about.
Neil

glad i could help neil.

Not got far sorry Neil. Had a look through Treasure Act reports, and a lot of the silver rings from England get disclaimed, so not many have a TVC valuation. There is a silver 15th century ring in the 2004 report valued at £200, and another 14th century one at £300. These are both described as slightly distorted, but have more elaborate designs than yours.

Yours looks to be perfectly round, which is a plus. What size is it, because wearability will often affect market value?

Have you got a reference to which Christie's sale was referred to from 2005, because all the Christie's auction valuations are online?

Here are the rings from the 2004 report.

anyone who thinks they'll get a fair market price off these thieves can think again the tvc have a long record of underpricing treasure item's. it's little wonder people are put off declaring items.  mike

Hi Neil not sure if i showed you this before but here is a ring nearly identical to yours found in the fishpool hoard.

The hoard comprises 1,237 coins, four rings, four pieces of jewellery and two lengths of chain. It was probably deposited some time between winter 1463 and summer 1464, during a rebellion against the Yorkist king Edward IV on behalf of the Lancastrian Henry VI, in the first decade of the Wars of the Roses (1455-85).

It is a nice ring Neil and it's always a problem to know what it's worth, I think they expect people to disagree with the valuation but as Peter says you need evidence and with yours it's hard to get. What do you think a fair valuation would be?  £400?

Cheers for the hoard photos James - I had forgotten about that

Thanks Peter - I have the Christies reference - its on my desk with the letter in work - I'll PM you tomorrow - Thanks for looking - very much appreciated.

Hedgehog - that is about the sum I had in mind and I think it would be about fair all things considered. But, more importantly will it be known as the Woollacott Ring? ;D

cheers all
Neil

Cant help with a parallel Neil, but £150/£200 seems a poor offer, I would think it is worth more, Very nice find. :)

Quick update - I managed to track down the Christies reference via the magic of the web to discover that it is in fact pertaining to a late 16thC - early 17thC silver gilt inscribed posy ring. Which is nothing at all like the one in question. Poor homework by the valuers in my opinion.

My letter contesting the valuation is heading off today. I'll keep the site updated on how I get on.

Cheers all
Neil

Good bit of homework there Neil, after making a gaffe like that I am sure they will see sense!

I,ve encountered the treasure process before !! when I found my hammered hoard  :o the arkies faces were a picture when the decision went against the crown  ;D on the basis of your story Idon,nt think they will be seeing me again legally speaking they have a duty to make an offer representing the true market value  ;D this leads me to believe the people involved the the valuation process are either inexperienced or devious maybe both  >:( >:( don,nt ask tell them you want a reavaluation  ;)mole

It is a very nice ring Neil,and as your aware, i am awaiting the out come on my own case of a gold mourning ring,which i found last August,so it is very interesting and informative to read the replies here.Good luck with a fair valuation.

There is a saying... NEVER ACCEPT THE FIRST OFFER

Another saying... Bullshit baffles brains.

What I would do is reply to them saying that prior to giving it to them you had the ring valued by two antiques dealers. Just say they would not give you an estimate but both made a firm offer to buy it off you.

Say one offered you £350 and the other one actually went to £450 when you mentioned the first offer to him.

Tell them that based on the two OFFERS you received it makes their estimate totally unrealistic.

Due to the fact these dealers would sell the ring for a far greater price you want them to re-consider their offer to represent the true current value of the ring.

Say you would readily accept the an offer of £300 (or whatever you decide) from them because you would rather is to a museum than have a dealer make profit from it.

Worth trying.

Thanks again for the replies.

Malcolm - I like your train of thought! I may follow that route for round 2!

Luckily I work alongside a Solicitor who has assisted in drafting a letter with me asking for the ring to be completely reappraised on the basis that the first appraisal is flawed. Some of the issues we touch upon are the following:

Their stated comparisons and appraisal prices are non comparable.
Their price guides are dated by 10 years and inaccurate in description.
The ring is complete,wareable, saleable and of male size.
The market in Medieval (late) jewellery has dramatically increased in the past 10 years.
There is no known comparison found in Wales or the UK.
No rings of this type have to date been declared by detectorists.

I will keep you all updated on their response.

I think its healthy for members to read about the whole Treasure Process and their actual valuations as hopefully it is a process we all have to experience at some point.

Over and out for now
Neil

Excellent points Neil, If that doesn't raise the valuation I don't know what will. :) :)

Hi there neil i think its a poor sum to offer had a few case,s with them myself not happy at all with them got one going on now i found a henry groat made in to a brooch found in cowbridge last year it is the first one to be found in wales only two found in uk other one found in cork in ireland that was a penny they put a price on it at £40 whats going on  ??? they are crooks sometimes i think it dont pay to be honest  :P  >:( so get it checked out mate now you still got time we work dam hard for them finds :)

Update - I have just received a second offer from the British Museum.

They bore in mind all the comments in the letter I sent and agreed that it was initially undervalued. They have now increased their offer to £250. I don't think its going to get much better than this from reading their letter, as they refuse to match my valuation.

What do you think? Accept it and put the process down to experience or keep battling on in the hope that it increases?

I would rather bascially have the ring back, but that is never going to happen!

Opinions please.

Neil

P.S. On the plus side mum has done another house clearance over the past few days and the money would buy me at cost price a lovely mans ring. 18ct gold and platinum with a three quarter carat diamond  as a keepsake for finding the medieval one. Weighing in at 11.2grams. American hallmarked to the early 1950's

No sorry Millsy I don't get it back, as its been declared Treasure and thats the end of my ownership rights as the Museum of Wales have repeatedly said they want to purchase it from day one. And I quote from Mark Redknap "We have nothing comparable in our collection."

I have never sold any items I have found to date - I don't dp it for the money, but I want a fair price for the farmer and I.  Never say never though, if needs must I would sell my entire collection if hard times meant I had to.

Cheers for the reply. See you on Saturday mate.

Neil

I would cut your losses and run put it down to experience.Next time bear in mind once bitten twice shy.

thats a bit better neil well done for sticking to your guns mate do what you think is right but not a lot you can do  :-\ once bitten  ;)

I agree, that's probably about the best you can hope for Neil. At least it shows that you can make a difference by challenging the first valuation.

i have found this post very interesting. not having found anything of real value as yet, I would have expected a fair valuation of any article of historical interest.  not so it appears. if I ever do I will certainly get some accurate valuation before declaring the fine. is it possible that with such a low valuation they cannot provide a duplicate for you or the land owner to keep maybe.

Can't agree more! ;)

Cheers Dave and Phil and Peter, trys and Earth24 - I'll probably accept it and as you say put it down to experience and a bit of naivety on my behalf. Twice shy mate ;)

No offer of a duplication, but I will mention it in my reply - good idea.

And to think they accuse us of being crooks!  :( They reap as they sow!

Neil

Last chance ... A landowner has more clout that a person with a hobby.

I would send a letter stating that you have consulted the landowner , who as they are fully aware is entitled to 50% of the money received.

Say the landowner is disgusted that such a LOW evaluation has been put on it and that he has stated that he will never allow you to mention his name or the farm name ever again because of their pathetic evaluation.

You can also say that he has also withdrawn his permission to allow you to bring "archies" onto his land if you found something of importance because of their lack of understanding of the real world where people like him are prepared to sacrifice land and crops for an unspecified time for the sake of history.

Also say he will be advising other farmers to do the same which is a real shame because land which could have been available for archies will now be lost forever.

Say the landowner has said if his HALF comes to £200 then you can bring in the archies again with his permission should the accasion arise but as it stands at present that concession is withdrawn.

Worth a try because the landowner carries more clout than person's hobby and I bet they up their offer... normally the third offer is the final offer...

Go for it with nothing to lose but everything to gain..

Just to update this thread - we have settled on £250 - a lesson learnt there ladies and gents.

As I stated at the start of this post I would have quite happily settled for having the ring back, but that was a non starter once the Museum of Wales showed its obvious interest in aquiring it.

Oh well, I will just have to put it down to experience, although I must admit I fully enjoyed the probate hearing. I recommend attending to anyone who goes through the process.

Neil

Well finally today after one year and six months and two revaluations I have received notification that the amount of £125 has been paid into my account and the same amount to the landowners by the British Museum.

You got to ask yourself is it worth the hassle and numerous phone calls I have had to make? Don't get me wrong I enjoyed the probate process, but its beyond me how we are expected to declare any "Treasure" within 14 days and yet it takes 18 months to reach a conclusion.

In retrospect and after speaking to other "Treasure Declarers", I have got off lightly as I know of two DW members on here who have gone into the 3 year wait area. Also another two who have never had a conclusion and on enquirey have been told the items they declared can not be found! I wonder whos collection they now reside in? ::) Draw your own conclusions on that.

Neil

Its still a lovley find mate ;D.....dont agree with the process tho ???

Just for the record, I read a article on this subject .that the goverment pot that the funds for rewards are allocated from also covers the general "slush fund" for the London olympics. I think that answers all questions why offered rewards are so low.
Also in my case in progress when no comparative item can be found on record Im sure that the offer will be as low as feasably possible.
 I agree that a good photo record should be made before handing potential finds over (which I failed to do ) a mistake I will not repeat.
Maybe a few links to reputable independant valuers/dealers could be included on the forum.