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Metal Detecting Discussions => Beat the Doc... Identify your finds here => Topic started by: jtalbot0001 on February 03, 2019, 09:15:20 PM



Title: Valentinian II
Post by: jtalbot0001 on February 03, 2019, 09:15:20 PM
Hi All,

I have this coin (sadly not found by me) but on trying to ID it cannot find anything similar. I am sure this is Valentinian II.

However, I have only found one similar online (Mintmark TR) so far in the British Museum (RIC IX 060 or RSC V 67A).

Note the following: Mintmark TR. Reverse legend has MVLTI (not MVLT or MVLTIS) and obverse legend reads DN VALENTINIANVS [xx] - ends with just two letters!!?? Shouldn't it end with more??

Any help will be appreciated.

Jon


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: wet feet again on February 03, 2019, 09:31:21 PM
its a votive coin emperors pledge x 10 years xx 20 so on to serve
TR could be trier now germany


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: Val Beechey on February 03, 2019, 09:40:15 PM
That looks interesting Jon. Give Probono (Roland) a shout to see if he can give you more info. 👍


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: The Doc on February 04, 2019, 02:47:26 PM
According to RIC IX, this is said to be an ancient forgery of a Valentinian I siliqua:





Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: The Doc on February 04, 2019, 03:04:45 PM
Possibly very rare though if a contemporary forgery. RIC notes it as being present in the Ermitage collection (Hermitage, St Petersburg)


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: Val Beechey on February 04, 2019, 03:49:38 PM
Hello Mr. Doc. My apologies for not recommending you. Donít see you here that often.
Is this another Spikey de ja vue ? It looks very crisp to be an original though, donít you think ?
Hope youíre keeping the faith and keeping well.


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: The Doc on February 04, 2019, 04:35:31 PM
No problems Val - Roland knows a lot more about Roman coinage than I do, but I knew I had the reference available to look this one up.

I'm still keeping the faith but haven't done much detecting lately. I do check here most days but sadly not a lot going on as you know.


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: jtalbot0001 on February 04, 2019, 05:32:08 PM
Hey Doc,

Thank you so much for the ID. Those notes you put up mention everything I thought was of interest.

Last night after posting this, I was looking under a magnifier, and one can now actually see it in the scan as well, that this coin is indeed a forgery!! I have posted another picture with an arrow pointing to where the silver has 'come away'. You can see the dirt is actually sitting in a crevice caused by the silver coming away. I do not want lift that dirt further.

I am going to do my best to convince the finder who I got it from that it gets recorded.

Do you think if I contacted the place in St. Petersburg they would email me a picture of their example?

Thanks Val for your input and to all others who comennedted on the coin. I will update this post once I have it recorded (hopefully).

Jon


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: The Doc on February 04, 2019, 06:42:09 PM
You could certainly try contacting them. Hopefully the coin is still in their collection.

Details:

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/research/restoration/numismatic_department (http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/research/restoration/numismatic_department)


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: probono on February 04, 2019, 07:05:24 PM
I'm trying to find my copy of Roman Silver Coins vol. 5 - it has to be there somewhere......I have all the others on the shelf!

Given the blundered legend, then it's highly likely that it is an ancient imitation - the TR mm usually by this time is TRPS - the reverse looks very much like that of some coins from trier of Julian II

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces102747.html (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces102747.html) for example. or here:- https://www.coinarchives.com/4e48dff52ebff5b709c87f92a0d11489/img/cng/e/437/image00511.jpg (https://www.coinarchives.com/4e48dff52ebff5b709c87f92a0d11489/img/cng/e/437/image00511.jpg)

You haven't said what the weight or size are, but even the Miliarensis have TRPS as the mm.

There do seem to be quite a few imitations that I've seen recently - some people collect them - and it is a hybrid / imitation that I haven't seen, or can remember seeing - you must remember that many of the people copying these were illiterate, hence the blunders.



Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: jtalbot0001 on February 05, 2019, 07:44:40 PM
Hi Probono,

The coin weighs 1.56g and it is 16.5mm in diam.

I agree that the people who made forgeries were generally illiterate, but I got to take my hat off to the craftsmanship of this coin. For one the obverse legend is correct, apart from the last too letters PA, which when you think about it is actually is an abbreviation of PF AVG, so it makes you wonder if the person who made this coin wasn't illiterate after all. IE the person new exactly what he was doing.

That picture of the coin in the link, it looks like the same kind of toning as coins from the East Harptree coin hoard.

I contacted the Museum in Russia.

Will update when I have more info.

Jon


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: probono on February 05, 2019, 11:41:43 PM
Looking at the pictures you have loaded, there are a number of things that differ from most siliqua.

Firstly, there are no flan cracks or even edge splits - the edge of the coin looks quite rounded as if the edge is smooth.

When you blow up the image, there appear to be casting flaws - and I'm a bit worried about the dirt - or at least the pattern of dirt - although I can see a small area of verdigris on the bust - however, I can't ever remember seeing a siliqua with verdigris  - their silver content is too high (although I could be wrong on this).

Do you know where this was found? I think it has been cast rather than struck - and it would be interesting to see the state of the flan on the reverse, at the bottom under the dirt too.


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: jtalbot0001 on February 06, 2019, 06:48:41 PM
Hi Probono,

You are quite right in all that you say. I was in no doubt that the coin had been cast as soon as I saw The Docs info, and after I had put the post up, I could see where there would be a core, or it looks to be that way, under the dirt where the arrow shows. Many ancient forgeries were cast with the silver or gold placed over the surface (if they were to be gold or silver). See the two pictures I have attached, the one shows what a forgers clay mould looks like, the other shows a gold coin with one side showing the copper inner core, both of these I have.

I do know where it was found. Will keep updating when I find out more.

Ancient forgeries makes an interesting subject.

Jon


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: probono on February 06, 2019, 11:45:30 PM
Interesting - we should probably have a chat at some point :)

I've also got a clay forgers mould (from CNG I think) - mine's of a coin of Fausta - so similar period to yours :)  Never quite brought myself to buy a plated aureus - don't see to many of those - there seem to be more plated solidus around :)

When I've dug it out of the boy's coin collection I'll take a photo of the fouree siliqua and post it :)


Title: Re: Valentinian II
Post by: probono on February 07, 2019, 04:57:04 PM
Here's some images of my fouree siliqua - note the reversed N in 'VALENS' for instance - the dark areas are where the plating has broken. This is a struck example.


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