DetectingWales.com

Metal Detecting Discussions => Treasure Trove Finds and Discussion => Topic started by: probono on May 14, 2015, 10:30:49 AM



Title: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 10:30:49 AM
Hi All

well, it's been two and a half years in the getting to the coroner's court, but I can finally give you some more info on the little hoard I found in December 2012.

I'll write it up as a series of posts due to the image limitations / it's probably easier to read that way.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 10:33:09 AM
So, it all started with the find of a half groat of Edward III in the middle of 2012 - found with my trusty T2.

It was only my second hammered on the farm (and my third over-all) - the T2 had certainly helped me learn how to detect much better as the simple signals, ease of use and good pinpointing made things easy for me.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 10:36:41 AM
On August 26th 2012, I was about to throw my SE Pro in the hedge / get rid of it, as I hadn't used it for 9 months, but a good friend from GDC showed my I'd set it up wrong :)

I left the rally we were at (as I wasn't finding much) and thought I'd have a go in the usual field to see I was going to get any luck.

I sure did, with a nice, full flan - if a bit abused by the soil Groat of Edward III - treaty period - I was over - the moon, and the SE got a life line :)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 10:43:49 AM
Well, a few months had gone by, and I was detecting with Mike in the field - he pulled up a fantastic roman brooch (and a lump of galena). I asked him what coil he was using - an Ultimate coil.

Not to be outdone by Mike, I quickly bought an ultimate coil from Chef.

And, it was certainly worth it, because it was at my very next outing I found my hoard


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 10:48:39 AM
I'd been detecting on the field (1st December 2012), which would have been my parents' 49th wedding anniversary, but with out much luck - although did find part of a roman ring (my first).

As is often the case I was walking back towards the car when I got a signal on an area I'd walked over many times before, but as I hadn't found much that day, I dug it.

It was getting dark (this was at 4 o'clock in the afternoon), and out popped a groat (London Mint).

Following the advice of 'always check the hole after you've dug out the first item' I got another signal - another groat - then another groat. I was starting to feel just a little bit sick :)

I decided to check in the spoil from the hole and in the dark the first quarter noble popped out - how had I missed that?

It was getting too dark to continue, but I knew that I needed to go back the next day to find if there were any more - I'd found my first gold - and it was hammered!


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 10:59:10 AM
Despite my wife complaining about me going detecting twice in one weekend (you'lve already been out - they're only more coins!), I got my father in to babysit and I then went out on the Sunday morning to find some more coins.

I don't know why I didn't take more pictures of the dig itself - excitement probably, but I do have some pictures of one of the groats still in the soil.....


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 11:02:16 AM
So, I know you guys like really dirty pictures, so here are some.

On the second day I found 1/2 noble, 3 quarter nobles, 8 groats and two pennies - all (but for one penny of Edward I) of Edward III - plus a roman coin of Constantine the great.......apparently the museum didn't think that was part of the hoard.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 11:08:24 AM
And finally some pictures of the coins, cleaned (with soapy water in the main, and a cellulose sponge).

The first groat I found was some 20m away from the rest of the hoard (which was scattered over a very small area) - is it really part of the hoard? It is of the same date, and like all the other coins of full weight.

Forgot to say I found the rest of the coins, on the second day, after stripping an area of about 2' x 3' of turf and then detecting the exposed soil - I wouldn't have found them otherwise.

So I told the farmer and let the museum, and the coroner know about them - handed them in after writing a report and photographing and weighing all of them and then waited.......

As an adjunct to this - I'd be interested (as I have a reasonable idea myself) of what you would think the coins should be valued at.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: celticspikey on May 14, 2015, 11:12:46 AM
Wow Roland  :o :o, well worth waiting for mate, truly a great story and finds, congratulations on the finds especially the Gold, nice group shot as well. ;) ;)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: jcb (THE THIMBLE) jones on May 14, 2015, 11:37:25 AM
WOW cracking write up roland well found and stunning coins ,whatever they are worth it wont be enough  ;D


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: b.buoy on May 14, 2015, 11:47:41 AM
Superb finds and good narrative. Know the feeling but in my case took a few more days to declare it and got slated >:(


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: hotmill on May 14, 2015, 12:39:03 PM
Superb! Great tale and lovely pics!


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Dungbeetle on May 14, 2015, 01:37:39 PM
Great story mister, well done. I'm still waiting for my first hoard, it must be a fantastic feeling.Thank you for sharing it with us ! Well done again.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: david995 on May 14, 2015, 02:55:50 PM
Great finds and very well presented , i was wondering what constitutes a hoard ?  ie how many of what makes it a hoard rather than some finds,  whats the defintion


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: BugbrookeBen on May 14, 2015, 03:09:31 PM
wow, what a hoard! :)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Neil on May 14, 2015, 03:34:33 PM
Well done Roland - I have been looking forward to reading the whole story - great write up and congratulations.

Now lets just hope 'the powers that be' play fairly with you! ::)

Great photos as well!

Cheers
Neil


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: handyman [Alan} on May 14, 2015, 03:45:22 PM
I did enjoy reading that Roland. Thank you for sharing and very well done indeed on finding it.



Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: grego on May 14, 2015, 03:48:59 PM
Fantastic finds well done.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 04:04:02 PM
Great finds and very well presented , i was wondering what constitutes a hoard ?  ie how many of what makes it a hoard rather than some finds,  whats the defintion

I suppose for me the simple answer is does it constitute treasure under the 1996 Act? (In this case two or more coins of more than 10% precious metal by weight).

If I was being picky - I would suggest that this is a purse-loss rather than a hoard, although it was probably a buried purse - why they never came back / didn't find them again, who knows?

My personal favourite from the hoard is the Treaty-Period groat with the die crack running across it - would have loved to have found a 'chain-mail' issue one though :)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Mike on May 14, 2015, 04:13:02 PM
well done mate good write up , i told ya there was still stuff there  ;) , hope they play the game on the


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: DEADLOCK on May 14, 2015, 04:15:27 PM
Absolutely brilliant Roland well done of the find and hopefully it all goes well with the inquest


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: cardiffian on May 14, 2015, 07:10:03 PM
Some beautiful coins there. A great write up and sharing of your experience.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: WEBBER on May 14, 2015, 07:44:15 PM
Wow fantastic coins Roland just wish I could find a groat let alone a gold hammered what dreams are made of!!


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Chainsaw Bampy on May 14, 2015, 07:58:23 PM
 you was very lucky,most of us can only dream of such finds, well done.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Mungo on May 14, 2015, 08:46:11 PM
well done rol..............very nice ........ 8) 8) 8)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 09:16:35 PM
well done mate good write up , i told ya there was still stuff there  ;) , hope they play the game on the

Funnily enough Mark asked me if I had an idea of what it would be worth yesterday at CS,  and gave me some advice on what to do if I want to challenge the valuation.

It went through inquest on 22nd April. Sometime this month it'll go up to the B More,  and then be 6 months to a year, depending if I challenge. The museum might even refuse to pay the valuation at which point I would get them back, but would have to then come to a suitable arrangement with the farmer of course.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 09:19:25 PM
Wow fantastic coins Roland just wish I could find a groat let alone a gold hammered what dreams are made of!!

I'd  love to find another groat, all the ones I've found are in that hoard.....I've got 16 I've bought but that's not the same. .....


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 14, 2015, 09:22:18 PM
you was very lucky,most of us can only dream of such finds, well done.

Yes, I was lucky and I'm  surprised it hadn't been found before. The amazing thing is it is a just outside Cardiff find too. If the farmer ever ploughed that field I'd  have to take a couple of weeks off work!


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: wet feet again on May 14, 2015, 10:07:29 PM
wow now that is why we all do this, a great writeup and pics well found


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: cardiffian on May 14, 2015, 10:30:42 PM
well done mate good write up , i told ya there was still stuff there  ;) , hope they play the game on the

Funnily enough Mark asked me if I had an idea of what it would be worth yesterday at CS,  and gave me some advice on what to do if I want to challenge the valuation.

It went through inquest on 22nd April. Sometime this month it'll go up to the B More,  and then be 6 months to a year, depending if I challenge. The museum might even refuse to pay the valuation at which point I would get them back, but would have to then come to a suitable arrangement with the farmer of course.
If the BM doesn't want them I would have thought that The National Museum of Wales would jump in?


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Dryland on May 14, 2015, 11:17:44 PM
Well you were certainly right Roland, that really is a find of a lifetime.and the thought of why it was buried and not retrieved is
intriguing. Have you spoken to LLoyd Bennett [ coins of Britain] about a valuation, I'm sure that he'd be more than willing to help


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 15, 2015, 08:55:50 AM
well done mate good write up , i told ya there was still stuff there  ;) , hope they play the game on the

Funnily enough Mark asked me if I had an idea of what it would be worth yesterday at CS,  and gave me some advice on what to do if I want to challenge the valuation.

It went through inquest on 22nd April. Sometime this month it'll go up to the B More,  and then be 6 months to a year, depending if I challenge. The museum might even refuse to pay the valuation at which point I would get them back, but would have to then come to a suitable arrangement with the farmer of course.
If the BM doesn't want them I would have thought that The National Museum of Wales would jump in?

They go up to the BM for treasure valuation. The NMoW is interested in them........


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on May 15, 2015, 09:01:08 AM
Well you were certainly right Roland, that really is a find of a lifetime.and the thought of why it was buried and not retrieved is
intriguing. Have you spoken to LLoyd Bennett [ coins of Britain] about a valuation, I'm sure that he'd be more than willing to help

Yes, they were found quite a long way from any manor house - the museum have already commented on that. The value (at least of the coins found so far, if there any others) adds up to 2/3 pound (or a Merk) - this is apparently a lawyers fee (and was until the mid 19th century).

I also didn't mention that the latest coins are from the mid 1360s - and very few have seen any circulation (the earliest 1/4 noble, a series B has some wear) - there doesn't seem to be any real unrest mentioned then either......

I haven't spoken to Lloyd - my question here, was to see what DW members thought more than anything - I'm president of the South Wales and Mon Numismatic Society, so have some idea from my own collecting, and that august body :) (although LB is a member too).


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Chef Geoff on May 15, 2015, 09:45:24 AM
Fingers crossed the valuation is a fair and realistic one Roland, It's good to see them up "at last" lol and well done again.
I know without a time machine it's impossible to say why it was hidden and just a natural cause of death could be the reason but given that the owner had the time and presence of mind to hide it it's worth noting that the plague makes a return visit to Britain in the early 1360's and hangs about for a few years also Edward the Black Prince was doing his thing out in France at that time and so there would have been far more money about from returning troops which means that the original owner could quite well have been from the "peasantry"   ;)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on August 06, 2015, 09:06:07 PM
So, I've had a 'preliminary' valuation from the BM (which they will recommend to the TVC).

5620.

I feel they've come up with a fair valuation for the silver (they value some of the groats at 250 - although this one is only the second known) but apart from one quarter noble (of which the last known specimen was sold in 1972 in the Doubleday Collection) which they valued at 920, all the rest were around 500. I think the gold has been undervalued - the half noble which is one of the best I have seen was graded at VF - despite almost all the coins being described in the report as 'unworn' - interestingly they have made no distinction between a VF York groat and VF London groat.......


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: dingdong on August 06, 2015, 09:25:49 PM
Well,what a brilliantly composed account of events,just GREAT!!👍
And as for the "HOARD"... Speechless!!!and that coming from me..WELL!!👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👍


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on August 06, 2015, 09:33:14 PM
Just as an added note, the coin in the first image has been graded as good fine  / almost VF, whilst the second coin has been graded as 'VF'

Now personally I would disagree with both of these gradings - the first too high, the second far too low...

I realise that the grading is subjective, but.......


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Dale on August 06, 2015, 09:35:56 PM
Roland when we spoke I averaged the silvers to be 200 each =2000 (I know there's a couple of pennies)........ 700 each for the quarters =2800........ and 2000 for the half noble = 6800

I think your a little short to be honest


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on August 06, 2015, 09:40:42 PM
Roland when we spoke I averaged the silvers to be 200 each =2000 (I know there's a couple of pennies)........ 700 each for the quarters =2800........ and 2000 for the half noble = 6800

I think your a little short to be honest

I too valued the half at 2k - they claim it is only VF and compare it to one that was clipped down to 3.3grams that went for 1500 (although mentioning another in the same sale that was 'EF' that went for 3k). I also valued the quarters higher than 450-520 - although again it depends on which sale you look at - the best of the grades I got was a GVF, but a slight bend at the edge - that one they valued at 520.

What did you think of their grades for the two coins above?


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: celticspikey on August 06, 2015, 10:00:49 PM
Great story Roland, cracking hoard well done ;)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Dale on August 06, 2015, 10:02:20 PM
Il take all 4 quarters at that price please!!

You should be able to read the legends even on a fine condition coin, you could say fine condition if your selling for coin 1...... Coin 2 has got to be EF in my opinion you don't get many like that atall.

I got told my Ed1st farthing was pushing EF if you look at the long cross its raised like a point what's rarely seen, I doubled the VF book price when I sold it


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Chef Geoff on August 06, 2015, 10:07:55 PM
I've noticed in the past it depends if your buying or selling, a coin that's EF when buying will only be VF when selling....according to the dealers that is ;)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Dale on August 06, 2015, 10:10:07 PM
I've noticed in the past it depends if your buying or selling, a coin that's EF when buying will only be VF when selling....according to the dealers that is ;)

True


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: TEZZA on August 06, 2015, 10:41:54 PM
AMAZING great find.Lets hope your rewarded there true value BRILLIANT


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: johnus brummieus maximus on August 09, 2015, 12:00:35 PM
Hoards always come when you least expect them


Title: treasure finds
Post by: johnus brummieus maximus on August 09, 2015, 12:07:56 PM
Hoards always come when you least expect them


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Val Beechey on August 09, 2015, 12:14:46 PM
Wow, what a find.   And to think I moved away from the Midlands.  Still, I wouldn't move back,  too busy for me these days.

Congrats on the finds John.


p.s. I'm not greedy, I only want one.  Coin not hoard  ::)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Spooyt Vane on August 09, 2015, 12:23:17 PM
A wonderful find and a great story...mouth watering to any body who detects..a dream coming true....well done Rob


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Dungbeetle on August 09, 2015, 12:29:37 PM
I never expect to find a hoard and up to now I've never been disappointed  :-[ :-[. Well done boys.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Spooyt Vane on August 09, 2015, 02:28:14 PM
I never expect to find a hoard and up to now I've never been disappointed  :-[ :-[. Well done boys.

I think the follow up on hoards is so interesting....the towns and cities where the coins are minted and moneyer...The dating of the latest coin in batch.The reason for hiding treasure....all adds up to a mystery who dunnit  :)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: anthonyjay on August 09, 2015, 03:35:04 PM
Great find there my friend, well done AJ Tony


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on August 09, 2015, 09:42:09 PM
Now I must admit that I wouldn't mind finding a roman silver hoard - I'm sure there's one somewhere on the land I detect on - after all the people who lived there (a roman site) must have buried their coins somewhere......


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: dingdong on August 10, 2015, 04:44:49 PM
Nicely said "Dungbeetle" I will make that my motto from now on!!👍👍 ;D


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: grego on August 12, 2015, 08:00:34 AM
Fantastic.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on August 12, 2015, 08:34:40 AM
So, I've written back - I've only chosen to challenge the valuation on one coin - the half noble, as it had been compared to a coin that was clipped and worn, and this one is neither.

I don't know whether this is just an insecurity issue or not, but I felt that in the reply from the museum it just sounded like 'well we'll put your suggestion to the committe (but what do you know)'. I'd listed some of my experience of course......and as recommended listed 4 other sales where a half noble in that condition went for quite a lot more than the example fished out by the independent valuer. Sadly I couldn't find any sale prices for the quarters that were higher, although the conditions of those sold were often cracked / worn / clipped.

I'll keep you updated with the any reponses, etc - the TVC meeting is on the 19th.


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: dingdong on August 12, 2015, 04:44:47 PM
Good on you "Probono", stand up for what you firmly believe in.👍


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: Dale on August 12, 2015, 06:58:05 PM
I think you've done the right thing to challenge Roland.

All the best :)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: valleyboy on December 10, 2015, 11:36:12 PM
Wow, what a great read, as a beginner to this hobby its great to get some insight on the process after finding a hoard.  :)


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: nonker10 on December 10, 2015, 11:49:27 PM
Il take all 4 quarters at that price please!!

You should be able to read the legends even on a fine condition coin, you could say fine condition if your selling for coin 1...... Coin 2 has got to be EF in my opinion you don't get many like that atall.

I got told my Ed1st farthing was pushing EF if you look at the long cross its raised like a point what's rarely seen, I doubled the VF book price when I sold it
[
 wow what a stonking coin thats an absolute beuaty well done indeedy./quote]


Title: Re: My treasure find
Post by: probono on December 11, 2015, 09:40:57 AM
Well as the thread has been commented on yesterday, the latest update:-

It's now three years since I found the coins (1st Dec 2012) - a valuation has been agreed (6k - I still think they've undervalued the quarters, but I got the farmer what I said it was worth 3 years ago).

I've sent off my bank details (a month or so ago) and it's just the waiting game - the museum has 3 months to pay, or 4 if they are trying to raise lottery or other forms of funding.

If they don't pay within that timeframe then I get the coins back (which to be honest I'd rather - and not to sell either) - of course then I would have to raise the money to pay the farmer.


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal