DetectingWales.com

This is not nice...........

http://www.dw.de/uk-treasure-hunters-make-archeologists-see-red/a-17066960 (http://www.dw.de/uk-treasure-hunters-make-archeologists-see-red/a-17066960)

give him a metal detector he will soon change his mind  >:(

It's quite obvious from the article he doesn't understand anything about where metal detecting artifacts come from usually (the ploughsoil horizon) and also assumes (like quite a few people I know) that you can only be a detectorist if you are uneducated - he's also Greek if you look at his LinkedIn profile and so has brought his ideas with him from his previous occupations.

I must admit that, for me, his assumption that we are all uneducated is the most outrageous suggestion - metal detecting (like many hobbies) has people from a broad range of backgrounds - but then as an Oxford graduate I know that people from Cambridge can be quite stuffy at times.......

Why not report on the hundred and hundreds of skeletons archaeologists lift from the ground... and thus from there designated burial place,  only to be thrown into a cardboard box and stored for a privileged few to occasionally examine from time to time >:( >:( he knows very little about metal detecting, and yet our museums are full of ancient objects recovered by us, for the public to enjoy and learn from ;).And now I am out to find some more ;D ;D ;D

Why not mention the hundreds of coins and antiquities that go 'missing' from many museums storerooms every year?

  :o :o :o :o :o ;)

Hmm a surprising read, You do have to question why some sections still feel the need to write such things.
Yes you could mention the amount of artefacts, coins and other antiquities that get "lost" whilst in the care of museums etc but two wrongs dont make a right.
I dont believe for one second that he is talking about the vast majority of responsible detectorists who follow the guide lines set down, report their finds and promote the hobby in the way that it was intended.
I would imagine like a lot of archaeologists his perception of the hobby is based on the few that go out at night without permission and do nothing of any use for Archaeologists and metal detectorists a like. Perhaps tougher sentencing when caught would go some way to help this??

All those years ago when I read about the introduction of the PAS, naively I thought this would go a long way to building bridges between Archaeologists and Metal Detectorists. In some circles I'm now begining to wonder if this is the case?  I still have over 40 finds waiting to be added to the database. The vast majority of them Roman, most I have already identified and yet upto 9 months later there is till no record of them on their website.
Just playing Devils advocate here but is the PAS doing all it could to promote this wonderful hobby??  

All we can do as responsible detectorists is continue to promote the hobby in the way that it should be,  

Wise words indeed Pon ;)
I think you have to take this archaeologists area of expertise into consideration  "Archaeologist and illicit antiquities researcher", he is seeing or studying the worst of the worst cases and in the same way that if most of us worked in a refuge for battered women, it wouldn't take long to come to the conclusion that all men should be licensed or castrated.
It is highlighting the very real danger areas but is not a giving a balanced picture also remember that this article has not been written BY the archaeologist and therefore the journalist has to use quotes to build a story, her final comment,
 "And unless laws change soon in the UK, stories like his are sure to inspire even more hunters to grab a metal detector and hit the fields"
is all hers and thereby tells a tale.
These articles and the "shock horror" response they always receive have been going around and around since metal detecting became popular and do nothing to advance either sides views or heal wounds.
As Pon says,
"Just playing Devils advocate here but is the PAS doing all it could to promote this wonderful hobby"
personally "no" I don't think they are but lack of funds stop any advancement in this area.
The same question could, in my view, be asked of the NCMD, they are conspicuous in their silence on promoting a more professional image for the hobby. I view them a little like the country viewed the late Winston Churchill, he was a great leader in time of war but the country soon got rid of him when it was over, they still seem to be sitting in their slit trenches with their tin hats on when many others have shaken hands with the "enemy" and realise we can not only offer them something but learn a great deal by cooperating.
NCMD need to either be replaced or at the least get a serious makeover, their website is as about as modern or exciting as listening to a 50 year old shipping report, they do not release membership numbers or release any financial accounts to it's members ::)
As I have said before these threads always evoke polarised views, the answers, if there are any, are to be found in a middle ground that has been fashioned by debate not insult.

  A great point. I raised a similar issue on another metal detcting forum questioning what they stood for and the support they give. the post was deleted within minutes of it being posted.
Sadly they always seem to remain silent when the oportunity arises to defend the hobby in a more positive light.

oh jeez not this, oh we are all getting the flak again  :o,,the term a victim of your own success comes to mind,,,show hoards ,gold and silver,show 2000 year old objects and let the gullable general public believe this happens on a regular basis,,then yes you are going to be on the receiving end of criticism,,,if you showed the normal dross of ring pulls bits of tin and lead ,,would people bat as eyelid {no} they would just put you down as a harmless fruitcake with nothing better to do.
but when all organised rallys say, oh the area is medieval/roman and then shout it from the rooftops when anything half decent turns up then again its going to raise a few eyebrows ,,yes the media love it,,detecting manafactures love it,but it leaves jo blogs the ordinary tectorist again in the spotlight ,,as long as your digging holes and broadcasting what you've found youll always get the stick off somebody or another.

We as a club  helped out on a abbey excavation and recovered 14 hammered from the spoilheaps...We marked all metal signals on site before excavation....Even with good seiving it was virtually impossible to spot the coins amongst the crumbled roof slate on site...But we noted the areas where they failed to find the signal and retrieved it from the soil heaps...Most non ferrous they found had good shape and colour....The coins were hardly ever found by the excavators ,but they were most important for dating levels....When i was up on Hadrians Wall looking at the excavations,i was astounded that metal detectors were banned from the site by English Heritage...Thats very short sighted and the site director agreed with me...But his hands were tied...There is a lack of common ground in some areas and nighthawks let this hobby down   >:(

I couldnt agree more Rob, This is where (in my own opinion) The PAS & the NCMD just dont do enough. The PAS more so than the NCMD are in a perfect position to unite us all for the common good. At this moment in time I see very little evidence of them doing so.

Likewise as Geoff has already eluded to, the NCMD seem to be more than happy to just sit back and pick up insurance/membership subscriptions, and from what I can see do very little in return. There have been plenty of opportunities where they could have spoken up and at the very least  published a statement regarding illegal detectorist, night hawking etc yet they remain anonymous.....
I'm on my soap box now....sorry everyone but this really is a sore subject with me :)

Reference to the NCMD;  There has been a change in their top people and because of this new policies are being made which seems a drastic step backward after all the hard work done in the early years by the likes of Trevor Austen. It is alleged that they are no longer interested in the PAS and have severed any ties there may have been.

What with many UK clubs being full and not even taking anyone onto a waiting list, could it be time for a new organisation?
An organisation which is basically one large club with separate county clubs, with the whole, being a pressure group for the Hobby?
Public Liability Insurance isnt a problem as I already have it standing by for my Goldpanning club and Forum#

 >:( going on about how the pas system dosent work as it should {yet many support and contribute to it} talk of trying to organise a different governing body for tectin,,why ,, detectin hasn't changed since the hobby started and its always has criticism from many quarters so any current or future voice of detecting will only go over the same old talk,,,yes we have nighthawks and will continue to do so,,yes we have a large percent of tectorists that do not work with the pas and will continue to do so ..yes we tread the same old ground literally etc etc
it will still not stop the criticism of the hobby and isn't it really just about tectorists trying to find a universal reason to take things out of the ground to do with whatever they please?

I agree to a point. The problem as I see it is that the NCMD was originally a very pro-active organisation, but it seems to have now withered down to a situation where it no longer seems to actively defend Detectorists or pro-actively promote the hobby.
It would seem that since the Treasure Act, it has slowly descended into a peaceful stupor rather than proposing and promoting new ideas, or joining with European Detecting organisations to defend any further degradation of our rights, because those who oppose us are still out there, beavering away, using any lies and excuses they can and any unqualified Vexatious dimwits they can to stop us.

The NCMD did a great job in the old days, but to me it has passed its sell by date

im just glad I don't give a hoot what archies think about me detecting (apart from our very own chef) I love history i,fill me holes in only detect on land I have permission so they can call me whatever they like I don't regard them as having any special right to tell me what i can and cant do so there rant over and breathe lol

Very true Goldpanner, to me it is reactive, which was fine when it was set up to promote DIG but now we need a pro-active body.
My ideas would be too radical for most and quite truthfully impossible to introduce in this country after such a long time of the hobby existing here. Yes I do think that the future if we want one is to work closer with the likes of PAS and for a governing body to run regional training workshops for self-recording, small finds excavation, basic finds conservation and site analysis by way of finds.
And before you all lynch me ::) no I'm not pro-archaeologist but I am pro-archaeology as anyone who detects should be in my view but don't get me wrong I'm not naive enough to believe the new governing body wouldn't need a "war cabinet" that could be called on should the need arise, for as Goldpanner has said they are still out there. Walk softly but carry a big stick ;D

Valid points stated on both sides of the fence,

Tragically there is an awful lot of independant detectorists out there, detecting at will whereever they wish and not adhereing to the code of practice.

Most hobbies have good guys and the bad guys  ::)

On the page I put up on the link itself there is a email address on the right hand corner if everyone on here sent a email giving their thoughts just to let people know what we think. ;) I've sent my email.

I hope you wrote it in German Kev :D :D :D

Nonsense Goldpanner ...we on the Isle of Man asked the present N.C.M.D .for help in the change of our ancient trove laws and they presented a very proffessional and impressive input into
the first draft of the new Treasure act that was to all intents unworkable............Now we hope the final draft works in our favour.....Thanks to Trevor Austin and all the N.C.M.D .committee... ;D

Exactly my point. You shouldnt have to ask, they should have been on it without anyone asking, Years back they would have been.
Today they have to be 'asked'.
Says it all really.

Being a long time member of the NCMD.

I'm also a long time member Remix and would wholeheartedly agree that had the NCMD not been formed when it was the hobby may well have been banned but but I'm not going to doff my cap to them just because of what happened 30 years ago.
The problem as stated is that as a governing body they just don't govern, they neither give views or guidance on items affecting the hobby and only act on things that endanger the hobby.

I know where you are coming from.

Yes maybe "governing body" was the wrong term and I agree with your last sentence regarding a lack of interest but this is bound to happen with a hobby where you can just buy a machine and away you go.
As for finance, well we haven't got a clue what they have as they don't or won't release figures nor will they say how many members there are :-\
As I said in my first post of this thread, "they still seem to be sitting in their slit trenches with their tin hats" Just maybe the attack will never come so what is happening to the subs while we wait?  and just maybe, if they became more proactive then any future plans may be put to them for consultation before any standoff becomes necessary.
It's just the views I receive are pointing to the fact that a certain number of dedicating members of the hobby would like to see an organisation that is a leading light and there to help with the minor as well as the major difficulties.

The apathy issue is rife within the hobby.

So in effect their business is running their business and not doing what they are mandated to do?
Thanks, thats what I thought.

We need a new organisation now or a complete shakedown of the present one.
The Treasure Act was a trap that the NCMD fell into, now they are afraid to bite the hand that gives them credibility, The Government.

I can forgive you that comment as you're a newbie. Whatever you think of the NCMD today, the fact is that we would not have a hobby today if they hadn't worked so hard for us when the Tresure Act was being drafted in the mid 1990s. The arkies expected to have carte blanche to do as they liked and mandarins in Whitehall would have just rubber stamped it. Other detecting bodies just stood on the sidelines and criticised.

Without doubt the NCMD needs a face lift, I dont think anyone would argue with that. I know I've said it before, but I personally would like to see them being more vocal in their defence of the hobby. It does seem that they are quite happy to sit back, take peoples membership money and survive on the reputation that they had 20 years ago.

"to provide an authoritative voice to counter ill -informed and frequently misleading criticism of the hobby". Their words not mine, I just wish they would.  

Just out of interest, does anyone know of a detectorist that has needed their insurance? I ask because I havent, and I would genuinley like to hear from anyone that has.

Quote Win "Whatever you think of the NCMD today, the fact is that we would not have a hobby today if they hadn't worked so hard for us when the Tresure Act was being drafted in the mid 1990s".  I dont think anyone is disputing what was allegedly done 20 years ago, Its what they haven't done in the last 20 years that dissapoints me.

A newbie? DONT call me a newbie, I was fieldwalking and detecting probably before you were born.

So you want the 2/- Argument eh? OK fine, sit down and read sonny boy.

I know an awfull lot about the NCMD and the Treasure Act as I was part of the grouping opposing the Treasure Act as it was proposed.
With or without the NCMD we would still be detecting. The NCMD had little if anything to do with the Treasure Act other than sucking up to politicians to ensure their noses were in the trough.

So lets just put some other things in perspective.The NCMD havent 'ensured' anything.
The NCMD only did a 'good job' because at the time when the Treasure Act was proposed, it was the only people the Government would talk to.
Its a neat Government trick used to blindside many people when they can say about any Consultations, "Well we are in discussions with the relevant organisation". Thats always a killer for the blind fools who believe it.
But the truth was that there were far more detectorists NOT in the NCMD than there were actually in it, and  a majority of people opposed to the Treasure Act, but the Government ignored that fact. Sure they put out Green Papers then White Papers for consultation but didnt take a blind bit of Notice of the responses to them. The Treasure Act itself was slid through parliament, minutes before the house was prorogued before a General Election with only 5 people sitting in the House to vote. Technically it was an illegal enactment as members of the house were not given sufficient notification of the vote before it happened. Do your history, check your facts.
Now, the NCMD had a straight choice of which side of the fence to sit on. They either sided with the Anti's who were the actual majority of their members or took the cushy road of supporting the Treasure Act knowing that would then put them in the Governments pockets and sitting at their tables.
That was what they chose. The easy route, the cushy route.
However, Its a simple fact that NCMD or no NCMD we would still be detecting with the Treasure Act as that was the law. It would have been passed without any involvement of the NCMD, they just jumped on the Gravy Train while they could.

So we have the Treasure Act and the NCMD. I obey the law and am a member of the NCMD and obey the Treasure Act.
Being a member of something however, doesnt dis-enable them from commenting on what they and a lot of other members are thinking and indeed saying.

However........The NCMD in its present form has become complacent and lazy, full of old farts who really cant be bothered to do much at all, pretty much the same as the FID. It should be working alongside EU organisations to further our detecting rights, not only in this country but also within the EU.

Are you happy that practically anything in your garden soil doesnt belong to you? Do you think Farmers are really chufffed to be told that stuff found on their land, land that could have been in their family for hundreds of years isnt theirs by right? What right does the government have to seize something lost hundreds of years ago?.
The NCMD have become too lazy and should be doing more for us instead of partying with Government Ministers.

How dya like them apples, junior ?

OK guys keep it as a debate and as one it's good to hear the different sides.

We seem to have a few points being raised all pointing to a new or improved organisation but coming from slightly different angles in regard to the motivation.
We have got to remember that any representative body is going to have limited effect when dealing with the government for as I've said before, there are an estimated three times as many bell ringers in the UK than there are regular detectorists and so we have to play the game to a certain extent.
I see and saw the change in the treasure act as a result of our own success and in one way we as a hobby should be proud that enough archaeologically interesting things were being found to cause the change and remember that the change now costs the government far far more than did the old law of treasure trove.
I am currently working with groups in both Ireland and France to lobby their governments into legalising detecting and so I would echo Goldpanners idea of a broader interest in the organisation.
Its in this area that I've come to realise that "we've never had it so good" and our moaning about this and that is reminiscent of a bunch of spoilt kids. These groups don't even want the total freedom that we have but a self-regulated hobby with licensing and training.
To come back to Remix's answer for a minute. The argument that true figures cannot be given due to a constant change in those numbers only holds up if we are talking about "todays" numbers, surely then the membershipship numbers on the 1st of August this year should be no problem?
"The accounts are available for examination" OK so how do I get to examine them and yes I really do want to?
The apathy of detectorists is a direct result of the freedom that has existed for 30 years, the majority of detectorists won't know anything of how close we came to losing the hobby in 82, with some not even born :o A large proportion weren't even detecting in 96 and the TA, so we must appear like Chelsea Pensioners talking about some long forgotten war.
I would like an organisation that promotes knowledge in the hobby, I don't care whether they sip tea with the government I want a body who is seen as expert enough to be consulted by the BM and be part of the planning committee of PAS.

I do like a good debate. Where do i start ?

Very good reply Remix and thank you.
The stock figure though is I'm afraid in my mind not really professional or good enough.I am a paid up member of NCMD and would love to read their newsletter if they would only send me one :(
If as you say all this work is going on behind the scenes then surely what NCMD needs is a PR makeover?  As for "All other relevant documents are published on the NCMD website" ???  there are only 15 documents there and 8 of those are over ten years old.
Whoever wrote "A SHARED HERITAGE" in my view needs a medal and should be mandatory reading for anyone before they leave the shop with their shiny new toy but why isn't it up there for all to see as a web page entitled "What we stand for" rather than a pdf document tagged 1998?
I agree that experience counts for much but even better if it comes with wisdom and the ability to adapt, The Digging Deep (really bad title) newsletter (the few that I did receive) is more like a SAGA holiday brochure and nothing about it is going to promote a wish by new blood to be involved. And so PR PR PR and to get their finger back on the pulse of what the hobby is, wants and needs ;)

How about with the facts?, is that too much to ask?.
Of course there was little point in opposing it as it was already done and dusted by the time the NCMD were sucked in. What a coup for the Government and the NCMD fell for it.
We didn't want to oppose it, we simply wanted our points of view and suggestions and people who had suggestions and points of views to be considered....they werent, everyone opposing the Treasure Act were ignored. Why didn't the Government have meetings with the opponents?
The naivete was expecting the Government to consult with everyone. They didn't. They already knew what they were going to do and they did it, NCMD or not, they just wanted the NCMD along as it gave their Treasure Act a little clout, so they could say "Hey The Detectorists organisation supports this"

Your naivete in this is stunning, to say the least. The Act was going to be law no matter what the NCMD said.
The only negotiating they did was for how many NCMD committee members would be on the valuation committee and how much their expenses were for doing so. They negotiated nothing.They were patted on the head and told to shut up. It was laughable because most of the NCMD committee at the time they were involved in the Treasure act didn't even have a detector or had even  been out detecting for a long time. There are doubts if Jordan had ever even owned one.


Utter and absolute rubbish. But what do you think the Treasure Act is? Its regulation by effective statute. They simply couldn't then and cant now ban it. It would cause absolute uproar amongst the landowners for a start. The Treasure Act was a done and dusted thing before the call to the NCMD was even made, there was no compromise.

Oh Really? You KNOW?? No, you assume, and your assumptions would be wrong.. The NCMD didn't discuss anything, they sat round a table and talked but were told what to do, what they would be allowed to do. READ the minutes of the meetings, not the NCMD Minutes but the REAL minutes.
Probably the only thing I can agree with you on this post
That's what they want you to believe but they had absolutely nothing to do with the final Bill or any amendments to it, they were presented with a Fait accompli, either go along with it or you're out in the cold. But there were indeed many hours of meetings, lots of taxpayers money spent on booze and expensive food and cigars.
Its called "greasing the palms"
Utter and absolute rubbish. If they had opposed it, it would have meant nothing, the Act would still have gone through.
The actual vote in the House of Commons and absolute minute by minute timing of the vote, bare minutes before Parliament was prorogued was very carefully planned so that none of the members opposed to it were even in the house. It was a fiendishly conceived and well executed plan. They knew if it didn't go through then it would never have done so, so it had to be done secretly. My MP complained bitterly as he was not even advised of the vote until it was too late.

Probably as I have far more knowledge passed to me from someone inside the NCMD than you did and I was actually there opposing it tooth and nail right from from the start along with other groups like DIG. I knew about the Treasure Act proposals before even the NCMD did, work that one out.
But I was involved, very heavily but on the side opposing the Treasure Act, even though I was an NCMD member at the time and made my feelings quite clear. There was nothing wrong with Treasure Trove that couldnt have been fixed with a few tweaks. But don't say I wasnt involved, you should have seen my telephone bill and bills for printer ribbons and paper.
And now? I'm too old to start getting involved.
But you state I snipe and criticise? That's called democracy, its what my brother died for. I WILL speak out when I see something wrong though.

Too little too late.
Supporting something doesnt mean 'Actively Involved' or 'leading'. With the experience we have in this country we are centrally placed to lobby other EU members yet we arent doing it. Good grief were doing little in this country to amend the Treasure Act into something that's properly workable.
I DO know the answers, that's why I posted it!

I don't think were reading the same treasure act.


Oh sorry, so *you* grasp it all and we menials dont?.  Maybe I should bow in your general direction?
 It IS a right to detect on someones property and find things if they give permission to do so. It IS also a right to detect in Parks and public land. Councils don't own anything, they Govern on behalf of us but most Councils make it up as they go along.
The state doesn't have a right to steal something that could have been dropped on someones private land 3 or 400 years ago.  The same as The Crown doesn't have a right to claim that all gold in this land and rivers belongs to them.
Maybe you'll be happy if they bring back the Droit de Seigneur? because that's not far from the Treasure act.


The phrase 'Blind leading the blind' springs to mind here, considering most of the NCMD committee haven't swung a detector in many years.


I bet the claims for expensive wine and whisky goes up around this time?.
Matters are 'Discussed'? That's another great government trap to get people thinking that what they actually say means anything, it doesnt.


Remember, Government should be afraid of the people, The people shouldnt be afraid of the Government

Well lets hope we either get a new organisation consisting of actual detectorists and not carpetbaggers this time who actually know what they are talking about, or maybe if there's a blinding flash in the sky the NCMD might even start taking any notice of what its members are saying.
Then again its all pointless as the Government would have already fixed things before any discussions take place and the discussions are all smoke and mirrors.

I've had to do something that I abhor and that is to delete posts as it was turning into an argument about something that did or didn't happen 17 years ago ???
I think we have agreed that the NCMD was a main force in keeping detecting legal 30 years ago .
This debate is about the here and now give or take a few years, so no brownie points for praising past glories or pointing out failures. Do as the focus of the thread is trying to do and think on what the hobby needs now to go forward. ;)

need to stop fannying about and realise its JUST A HOBBY..if I was new to detecting I would think Christ what a bunch of fruits,,you buy a detecter,you get some land ,you make finds {or not} you declare finds {or not}  end of story,,,,i used to think trainspotters were a bit square but this goes beyond that and I don't think there is any other hobby I know that is so insecure in itself that there are so many divisions in the general detecting community about who finds what,who goes where etc,nevermind all this palaver.

But paul surely that's the self serving attitude that defeats any legitimacy that others try to invoke for the hobby, the Magpie approach just plays into the hands of the detractors if enough people are shown to "detect and go" then Goldpanners fear regarding the treasure act could come true in the sense that they can make buttons treasure if they decide to. ;)

well said carling  :) I couldn't agree more

cheers stever, this self serving attitude is enjoyed by many in the detecting world and its something that wont change,think about how many people detect in the u.k and how many finds have been reported over the last 30 years,,when I 1st started detecting I knew nothing of the treasure act,flo,clubs etc only that I had to dig holes to find something ;),,,now as time as rolled by and the more ive learned about the political side of detecting im not impressed and don't see how you can have a national body for tectin when people don't pee in the same pot,,,,,recording finds for instance,i know chairman of clubs that have brought stuff of me to put in as finds of the month and therefore recorded {I wonder how much of that goes on} also displacing finds spots for gain, therefore the finds record is not a accurate picture,nighgthawking goes on by many and is condoned by many {not I may I add} and will continue to do so,this hobby has a problem proving any legitimacy on detecting as it is so why not just switch on and go as long as your not hawking ,trespassing,etc,,as for goldpanners faer that buttons may be declared treasure ,, why not? will it make a difference? no people will still declare or  not,,the rules may change but the game remains the same.

Your right to ;switch on and go was a hard fought battle, enjoy it. It might be a simple passtime to some but to others it is a full time hobby.
I compare it to people with Train sets, some have lofts converted to entire rail systems and some are happy with some tracks in a box.
Detecting effectively saved my life back in the 70's, that's why I'm so supportive of it

However, It isnt the fact that buttons can be called Treasure, its the fact that with a few words written in the right place, in the right sentence, Detecting could be banned or have such horrendous rules written in to make it effectively impossible.
Look at the EU, Detecting is effectively banned everywhere and our rights to detect were hard fought by a lot of people.
We have to remain very alert, or have an organisation that is very alert. I and others are getting too old now and we need younger smart people to be very alert to the threats posed by nighthawkers and site robbers who are going to give us all a bad name, and of the agencies out there that want our detectors destroyed.
The NCMD should be the eyes and ears of the hobby yet they arent. They need to update, to improve, to get rid of their complacency, or to get out and let someone else do the job.

I think carling that because of all the political rubbish that's been invented by some muppets that's why a lot of stuff doesn't get recorded I mean if you find something of value you have to wait well over a year to wait for some numpty to decide how much its worth and when you will receive payment if I find anything of value and I want to sell it I would not wait that long there is just no need for that long winded treasure process if they sorted it out so its very simple and efficient people more people would declare more finds so in summary of this rant .... keep it short and simple and lets enjoy the hobby

my turn to agree with stever ;) and goldpanner I agree with you for most of your statement ,,the right to switch on and go was fought by who and when?,,,when the 1st machines were brought out in the u.k did the 1st bloke that used 1 said right I must form a metal detecting council to see where and when I can use this thing ,, did he hell ,he brought it tried it out in his yard then set off for the nearest available land he could get and there were a lot less scheduled sites around in those days so maybe he did far better finds wise than we do today and just maybe he started all this,lets ctiticise the tectorists for where there going and the things there finding in the 1st place.

The thing is. when the first machines hit these shores in anger in the 70's, there were no organisation's at all. Everyone thought it was a passing fad. I can remember the first time I walked into the BM in the 70's and offered 5 Roman Trumpet brooches to them. I told them they had been found on ordinary Farmland with a Metal detector then also turned out a few silver denarii, and they were lost. They were totally aghast that people could do this. They were angry and actually told me not to do it again as they walked off with my finds.
I realised then that there were going to be problems in the future, but like most people just buried my head in the sand and enjoyed my hobby. I joined the NCMD as soon as it was formed and back then there was an energy to defend the hobby at all costs. I was also asked to be on the committee but I'm not that type and I was also a jobbing musician so didn't have the time. It was pretty obvious though within a few years of detectors being for sale that there was a growing interest as you could see clubs being formed.

What also came to mine and others notice was the vociferous and rabidly angry responses to detecting by 'The Establishment' who accused us all of being thieves and site robbers etc. That was when the excreta started to hit the Fan. That was when the group called DIG was formed, to inform and educate.

The thing is, times change, governments change and those people who opposed us way back then passed their fears and hates on to others. Fortunately for us the PAS has woken up the establishment to the benefits of the detectorist's. The problem we have is the rabid uneducated few, who because of some nighthawks and site robbers have tarred us all with the same brush. The fishing fraternity don't all get called thieves because of a few Poachers?, motorists arent all branded as murderers because some people get killed by cars, we dont condemn the archaeological establishment because of some Archies who steal and sell antiquities (and there's more of them doing that than detectorist's doing the dirty) why should we all be tarred as thieves because of a few animals who see it as OK to steal this Nations treasure and sell it off privately?.
And the big problem we have is that the voices countering those allegations just arent there any more. The Archies are given free reign to attack and condemn us yet where are the demands for the right to reply to these scurrilous accusations?.
We have to defend ourselves from those who want our rights taken away, because believe me they are out there and burying your head in the sand and ignoring it is the worst thing to do.
We need to be proactive and shout about all the wonderful things that we have found for our Country, not rest on our laurels.

Quoted from Goldpanner "The problem we have is the rabid uneducated few, who because of some nighthawks and site robbers have tarred us all with the same brush. The fishing fraternity don't all get called thieves because of a few Poachers?, motorists arent all branded as murderers because some people get killed by cars",  

This for me is what the argument is all about.

Next time you visit the British Museum, take a look at the finds that we all know were found by metal detectorists, Not one is recognised as being found by a metal detectorist! having said that most items in BM do not state how or who found them. I have no problem with this at all, thats down to BM to decide,  
Take a look at the NCMD website (which you would think would be most peoples first port of call if they wanted information about this hobby or what the NCMD stands for in the uk) You'll find its very much like the BM in as much as there is very little recognition to what this hobby has contributed to our history. This is what I find very sad, You would think that they would be shouting from the roof tops about such great finds such as the Hoxne treasure, the Staffordshire hoard, The Frome hoard etc there is very little recognition of this. Likewise when you enter the NCMD website the treasure trove laws, code of conduct should jump down your throat making you more than aware of the current laws and the duty you should adhere to...again this isnt so.
Further still, they seem to remain silent when local press, archaeologists and such like publish reports of illegal detecting, You would expect at the very least the NCMD to speak up and condemn such activity? As the NCMD stands at the moment I wouldnt hold your breath waiting for that one.
So with all this in mind, put yourself in the shoes of a reporter an academic or indeed anyone searching for "the other side of the coin" What impression would you leave the website with? You would be forgiven for thinking the NCMD really couldnt care less about nighthawkers/illegal detecting, or for that matter not thinking repsonsible detectorists have found some of the best artefacts/coins you and I are ever likely to see.
Maybe I expect too much from the NCMD? You tell me.

I can't think of anything to add to that Pon, you have summed it up wonderfully ;)

Thank you Geoff, I was due a decent post...looks like that was it. Need to remember the date of this for future reference.  :D

If you lot are not happy with the N.C.M.D. and their aims .....Why not get on the national commitee to change the things you dont like..Instead of sniping from the sidelines...Come on you can only change from the inside ::) ::)

I'm not sniping from the sidelines Rob I'm using artillery in the centre, this is trying to be a debate on what needs changing for the 21st century, so we know the "how" but the "what" is the question.
And it's not so simple to get on the committee. Has anybody that's a member of NCMD but been detecting for less than 10 years got any views?

Rob, I wouldnt call it "sniping from the sidelines"  as its been posted on a forum for all 2288 members to see. I would imagine that atleast some people connected with the NCMD have read the posts?? As a fully paid up member of the NCMD I feel I atleast have the right to air my views.
For the record I have sent an email to the NCMD and so far have had no reply. now I'm no computer wizz kid (Bill Gates does not poo himself when I sit down at a pc) and I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt and say they havent recieved it??
So for the benefit of the NCMD if they have read this post then please feel free to email at pona@hotmail.co.uk. I will gladly discuss this with you further. If they do email me back I will gladly give them my mobile number so they can ring me direct, as I'm over 40 (thanks for that Geoff) my prefered method of "communication" is still the telephone. :P

The other problems is, individual members not part of a NCMD club membership have no chance of getting onto the committee

Exactly and the majority of detectorists don't belong to a club ???

@Rob, sorry forgot to add this to my first reply , Ive also registered for the NCMD forum earlier today so I can post my views on there, as of yet I havent recieved a conformation email...(maybe they are busy updating the website to reflect atleast the 19th century)...Sorry, that was below the belt ::)  Rest assured as soon as I get my confirmation I will also post my views on there.

lol well edited  ;)

 ;D

Well you must be a really old feller if you were field walking  before I was born. I'm 70 on Saturday. you must be 90 at a guess.  Still its nice to be called sonny boy and junior, I thought thopse days had gone. thanks.

Happy Birthday for Saturday then Win  :)

thanks mate. I was really crushed about it a while ago but now I've come to terms with it. Family have been secretive, I know they're up to something. Aiming to get to 130 now. Then I'll think again.

I used to detect many years ago, but now I am back into it I joined the ncmd for the insurance and credibility..... I looked at joining a club like NWDD when they opened up for new members but reading the criteria I cant comply with their expectations due to being a carer and sometimes I am needed at the drop of the hat.

Yes we have access to careline who would ring me or other nominated contacts first or if appropriate send an ambulance
having said that I recorded Street patrol uk yesterday and watched it last night, to be fair they did state that many detectorists are law abiding and are not a problem.

What they did do was find 2 idiots working a known roman town in field that are scheduled the buffoons walked away and the heritage people took piccy's and found an etrac in the bushes,

Police went ti their homes and there was stacks of gear from the site including pictures on their phones showing a trench with One sat posing for the camera!.

My point is that if you stop and really really listen and hear what people actually say you may come to different conclusions howevere, when you watch the clip the "illegal detectorists and illegal theft of OUR heritage is due to DETECTORISTS plundering national and historical treasures"  kept popping into the clip....... now we as responsible detectorists will have understood the meaning and condemned these idiots BUT for the majority of other watchers it would come across as "thieving detectorists"

People don't read or listen properly anymore ie

A bird in
in the hand

OR

Top of
of the pops

Point made?

Actually that whole things is quite old and from last year

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/about/news/heritagecrime/ (http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/about/news/heritagecrime/)

That's why we need an organisation who can respond instantly to stuff like this and neutralise a lot of the negativity.

The 2 scumbags shouldn't have had a suspended sentence but should have be locked up for a month or so.

This is the sort of foul and scurrilousl rubbish that needs correcting and stamping out:

Mark Holmes, senior crown prosecutor and heritage crime co-ordinator for CPS East Midlands, said: “This practice of illegal metal detecting and stealing artefacts from the ground has been a growing problem, which the Crown Prosecution Service takes seriously. Often carried out by so-called ‘enthusiasts’, this kind of activity has retained a veneer of respectability which it just does not deserve. Land is being damaged; the theft of ancient artefacts robs us of important information about our heritage and the artefacts themselves are lost to the public.

As part of the Health and Safety profession I have seen over the years many press comments or general comments regarding 'HSE Nazis' HSE gone mad etc which was really getting the whole profession tarred with a very big brush, yes there were instances where councils and businesses had used HSE as an excuse to prohibit something, but on the whole HSE works at protecting people from Harm and ill health at work. The HSE governing body the HSE executive realised that this poor publicity was becoming a serious problem for HSE management in general. As a result the HSE Executive embarked on a campaign of using any public crticiism of HSE to put their point across, be it responding to press articles or getting involved in debates on radio and tv programmes. Rather than sit back and take a beating every time, they got out there and fought their corner, it has made a difference and people who are willing to listen to both sides of the debate can make their own minds up. If we have no one to stand up for us then the public damning the hobby as a whole gets every time 1 or 2 clowns with metal detectors go out and cause damage and steal things will only get worse, possibly to the point where someone influential or in government gets involved in a campaign to curb or ban our hobby for ever.

Lets end the fantasy that N.C.M.D. dont work hard enough...I helped run a charity fayre in my local parish for ten years and we collected thousands of pounds for charity..I was in charge of cutting and preparing the field, a big undertaking..People thought that happened by it self..I spent many hours selling raffle tickets and collecting prizes...We had meetings with the police to control traffic and safely organise car parking...I organised the celdhi at night to thank the helpers..The clean up was horrrendous for days after the fayre..Even though we spent hundreds of hours of our spare time helping the parish,the committee was sniped at..Poor  health led to collapse of that committee and fayre..But most people have no idea what happens behind the scenes in a committee .,I have been on  many committees and they are good people trying do their best... ::).

But in our specific situation the NCMD is there too look after our interests, to defend us from unwarranted attacks and allegations and in my opinion to Pro-Actively respond to those allegations and reports.
They aint doing it.

When was the last time you heard on the BBC: "The National Organisation for Detectorists the NCMD, today refuted the allegations of................."

I rest my case.

Well Rob you may live on Fantasy Island but the rest of us don't (sorry I couldn't resist ;D)
The point here isn't whether or not they do enough work it's about whether their focus is in the right direction for the current climate?
If they are run off their feet reading all the junk they must get from the NT, Forestry, English Heritage etc then is it time for a body to be set up to be the guiding light in the hobby for the 21st century?
NCMD have not moved with the times in as much as their image is one of a government body ie invisible, they have tried but seem to have gone about it half-cocked, their advice on detecting abroad for instance...under "Belgium" they have "Information still awaited" now I know the postal service can be bad at times but it's said that for 3 years that I know of, one phone call or email would give them the information. It's just an unprofessional image they put out, and if they are that amateur then it's of no surprise that the archaeological community think of the rest of us as being equally as shoddy.
Not only don't they "refute" as Goldpanner says but more incriminatingly they don't all out condemn when nighthawking is mentioned, they are not doing enough in my mind to promote the good detectorists from the bad and therefore you get the "I won't bother recording, no one else does" mentality.

blame the endless TV progs which gives the impression that a fortune is being robbed from the ground ,instead of the hard one odd hammered coin or badge or some other minor find. its too late now to change their minds .
the majority of finds are minor and have little value to anybody except the finders

Geof have you tried to get a full statement omany aspect of hobby on the B.B.C.lol/
Trevor Austin has had bits lleft out (the important bits) or his view is left out because of time factors lol....Get out of that drea\m world Geof ...EXCUSE THE PUN  ;D

Says who? oh let me guess. Regardless of that Rob I worked in the Press long enough to know that the more efficient organisations have a ready to go press statement when things aris and not the "when contacted" quotes that others give.

i suggest you speak to the horses mouth Trrevor Auistin,,not from nostaglia ;D

It's not nostalgia Rob, it's knowledge of how the system works and your suggesting that we get a quote from him ::)
This is not in itself a knock to the NCMD, let them be the government contact organisation but isn't it time that we have an organisation to "front" the hobby, to promote education and information. ;)

With your expertiise Geoff i would back you in any venture...waiting in anticipation like the rest of the forum ;)

I consider myself too old to do it Rob and I'm still the right side of 55, what's needed is some young blood with fresh ideas ;)

This is the blurb from the NCMD website:

The National Council for Metal Detecting is a representative body of elected volunteers formed in 1981 to provide a means whereby responsible metal detector users would have a democratic forum to discuss problems affecting the hobby and to provide an authoritative voice to counter ill -informed and frequently misleading criticism of the hobby.


Eh ????

I totally agree with you Geoff , that a voice is needed and it has to be loud enough
to be heared, before it's to late. Goldpanner .. I think that statement says it all, but maybe the NCMD need reminding of it.

So what do we do? Do the NCMD take the lead in this or is there a need for a more visible, more pro active organisation required? Is it up to the  NCMD to adapt or for something else? Seperate? Maybe made up of representatives of Detecting clubs willing to pick up the banner?

Getting to be bit of a witchhunt so let me ask a few questions to widen the debate :-
Where do the FID fit into the detecting world ?.

I am a member of several detecting forums and never see much about the FID except that they sell insurance. What is their take on detecting politics and i will ask the obvious, what have they ever done for the hobby ?

As far as I'm aware the "F" in FID is a misnomer and as you say their only reason for existing is for insurance, the same observations apply :-\ For instance their photo gallery hasn't been added too since 2005 and I'm pretty sure something must have been found in the last 8 years ???

Remix this isn't a witch hunt, this is a wakeup call.....modernise or move over  ;)

Modernising or moving over is nothing to do with me. I am just a forum members with views ,but will be interested to see who will be taking over so to speak. I look forward to seeing how they get on.
However will this new grouping be made up of self appointees responsible to nobody except themselves and accountable to no-one with hidden accounts, insurance policies details and so on ? We could be talking about the FID again.

FiD....Federation of independant detectorists!!!

Well a part from them selling insurance/ too cover u when detecting, i find them to-be a Good for me ! i get my photo  i d card..

i also get Recovery service cards" which i can hand out to farmers/land owners..both of these things have helped me agrt deal in gaining new search permissions...plus a get a nice annual fid book on whats going on in the hobby?/finds that have been made and updates on rallys ect....So gents its not just about the insrance ::) not for me anyhows :P........

 :)

its very simple folks no politics its just a hobby get permission ,fill your holes in,and enjoy the peace and quite...JOB DONE  ;D    oh and just laugh at all the made up politics remember people always need a good moan so let them get on with it

just to add they wont ever ban me ill be running across a field with the police chopper chasing me with 2 fingers in the air if they make it illegal ...............Rant over ;D

I aint commenting on this anymore ,it,ll be going on longer than the Syria so called crisis,,,,ban ,don't ban, licence ,don't licence,,,wont make no odds anyway people will still tect ,,everyones busy trying to justify to  themselves as to why there finding {ahem} treasure and getting told off for it by so called people in the know,,youll always have critics as it started as a hobby with people wandering where they want and to some extent it still is....just get on with it {or not} ..we all get told off sometimes ;D.

I heard that so many times before it was banned in Ireland, a couple of prison sentences later and all the bravado was dead as was the hobby.
Steve you're relatively new to the hobby and so I can understand not knowing the history and not being interested in all the "bolotics" but it's the newer people who are the ones who should be stating what shape the hobby should take for the future.
"ill be running across a field with the police chopper chasing me with 2 fingers in the air" that statement alone is the type that the heritage lobby just love. The politics are there whether we like it or not ;)

Agreed, I've only been detecting a few years but can see that ignoring the threat is not going to make it go away. There are people out there who do not want us to detect and will take every opportunity to chip away at the credibility of our hobby, burying our heads in the sand with the 'I'm allright jack' thinking is not going to work in the long run. Yes you can call it paranoia if you like, but the threat is there,and it will raise its ugly head one day. Some people have a negative view of detectorists, most wouldn't give a toss if it was banned tomorrow. It's a fantastic hobby, and the majority of us couldn't give a fig how much the coin we've just found costs, we're in it for the history, the expectation that the signal we're just about to dig is going to be something good! the buzz of discovering something that has been lost for countless years! the feeling that we could find something that could end up in a museum for all to see and we could say 'I found that' We need people to understand that the majority of us do it for those reasons, and not to make a few quid on e bay punting Eddy pennies at 20 quid a pop!

Hotmail, people are in different situations money wise and if they want to sale there finds its up to them, all my detecting finds and hammered coins would be sold in a instance to keep the roof over my kids head... you don't know the reason behind selling, its hard times for people and I know many of them what sale there finds, family and friends.

I think if it came to the point where detecting was going to be banned then there would be up roar by thousands of detecterists, what are just sitting back at the moment just enjoying the hobbie, and not get involved in all the politics, no one wants there hobbie made illegal, me included.

And where is the big threat coming from at the moment??? what wasent there last year and the year before and so on................

nobody is saying its going to be banned,just some members don't like being criticised for doing what there doing,and want to blame the ncmd,,it aint there fault but here what laws should be put into place if you've a small hope of defeating the critics
1 don't detect within quarter of a mile of any scheduled sites.
2 don't detect any land either side of known roman roads.
3 no night hawking anywhere period.
4 any site that starts to bring up items of any period over 500 years old ,stop and inform the flo.
5 please get information of any cropmarks off the relevant body before commencing detecting.
6  do not detect within half mile of any present settlement.
7 anything over 300 years old must be recorded
8 the tvc will be srapped seem as you do it for the love of  history not the finatial reward.
9 you will all be required to carry a licence that ha to be signed by the flo and landowner of any site your on.
there you go guys that,ll stop most critic if you all agree to the 9 conditions {not fair I hear you say} well then stop blaming the ncmd an live with the negative comments.

And there lies the problem !! complacency

need to get your own house in order guys before passing the book,like Harold shipman saying I didn't kill nobody it was the nhs that did it  ;D..

You've lost me there somewhere Paul? Where do you see blame shifting ???
I do like your rule number 9 and 7 should come naturally anyway ;)

blame should lie with tectorists themselves,when tectin  started there were no rules to where you could go,why wasnt the hobby regulated when it 1st started it might have layed the cornerstones of regulations that would have adhered today,i know many old tectrists that say {when you mention a site } oh yea I was there 30  years ago {must have been scheduled since then},and now some sites get scheduled because the simple fact someones been tectin on it and found more than they should have  {a regulation in the making if you like},,and these days we have people selling potential treasure items on the open market that haven't been throught the tvc  and of course we have always had the spectre of nighthawking,,,,how can the ncmd take responsibility for a group of people that probably started on the wrong foot anyway and continues to do so regarless of declaring finds or not.

Oh dear, your logic is all over the place. The first hobby detectors hit this country in the Mid 70's and the NCMD was formed around the early 80's. They did set the rules. The problem we have now is the mass of detectorists that have taken up the hobby in the last 15 years or so and many of them, not even knowing about the NCMD or FID.
There WERE rules when we started, same rules as today, you couldnt simply walk on to a farm and detect, you had to have permission.

No ones asking the NCMD to take any responsibility at all. What some of us are asking for is simply that they obey and enforce their own objectives which they arent doing. They are supposed to defend metal Detecting and its users. They arent doing that.

Oh dear, your logic is all over the place. The first hobby detectors hit this country in the Mid 70's and the NCMD was formed around the early 80's. They did set the rules. The problem we have now is the mass of detectorists that have taken up the hobby in the last 15 years or so and many of them, not even knowing about the NCMD or FID.
There WERE rules when we started, same rules as today, you couldnt simply walk on to a farm and detect, you had to have permission

here we go again the guys that have been detectin since year dot blame relative newbies to the hobby,,even though tectin wasn't regulated until a decade after it started??
of course you had to ask for permission but back then if a farm had a dirty great roman fort ,saxon palace etc on it ,,these days it will be scheduled.
most nighthawkers that have been caught are in there late 40s-60s and say they've been tectin for years?
you hear this term responsible tectin uttered time and again ,,some of it has been imposed and some don't care ,,,cant make a recipe with the wrong ingredients.

I dont *Blame* anyone. I do however suggest that newbies to the hobby, and I mean people in the last 15 years or so, dont know about or realise the dangers out there from the people who want us stopped. They seem to just wish to either ignore the fact or leave it to others.
Its the old folks like me who saw the dangers back then and saw a need for an organisation to defend us from the 'frothing at the mouth' archies and non archies who want us stopped that formed the NCMD.
But the NCMD have become complacent and lost their edge.
Now it needs new blood, people with some balls who can take advice from the old boys and carry the flag forward.
Because if we, back then, had done what many are doing now and ignored the signs and the voices screaming at us, you wouldnt have the right to detect today. So if thats what you want for your kids then OK, do nothing, bury your head in the sand.
But your kids wont thanks you.

I have to say Paul you're right on the money with many points. Though to be fair a newby doesn't mean "young" and with the majority of the hobby being over 40 and a large proportion being of or near retirement age, so the age of Nighthawks doesn't really relate to their time in the hobby.
I think you'll find that there are no sites that have been scheduled purely because of detecting finds that's an urban myth, finds leading to further investigation and then from those findings to scheduling yes but that just shows how beneficial the hobby can be if performed responsibly.
There were no real rules back in the 70's other than common sense and the law of treasure trove, most who were detecting at that time only realised the implications of what we did as a pastime when the hobby was nearly banned, that process though unsuccessful brought things like heritage, ethical detecting and the code of practice into sharp relief. But it would be far better in my view for the hobby of today to learn from the faults we made than to replay history but this time we have had our chance, and therefore we would lose :'(
I know at times I probably come over as "holier than thou" and although I've never detected without official permission it is a little like "poacher turned gamekeeper" but then I didn't have the PAS but I did detect for a good 15 years in my own little world with only a cursory visit to the local museum to have my finds id'd.
I also agree to the selling of finds without recording (I don't disagree with selling finds by the way) but how this could be stopped is another question, possibly having to provide a PAS record sheet or give a statement of provenance before the likes of ebay would except certain items for sale may be one way.
But once again this in my view is about today and tomorrow not yesterday ;)

Great minds and all that Golpanner lol

thank you Geoff and goldpanner ,, the point im trying to make out is that any regulation to detecting should have been from year dot and yes it does harp back 30 years but it affects how we detect today ,, the laws are in place and now a broad section of the detecting community believe in various attitudes to detecting and it just seems to me that you can not place more laws upon the hobby that are enforceable unless it covers everybody and is drastic,,as for the critics against the hobby its always going to happen as its a bit dyed in the wool now and as I said we don't all pee in the same pot,,flo,s or ncmd or fid wont change any working legislation to detecting that can be upheld by everybody in the tectin world.

Very true and we would need a sea change in attitude from people to effect the views of newcomers to the hobby but I do believe a more "in your face" NCMD that is there to educate and inform from day one may help begin the process.
As I have said many times before the greatest threat to this hobby comes from the hobby itself :(

I understand people sell findsnow and then, that wasn't the point I was trying to make, what I was saying that it's a crying shame if that's all Joe public think we are in it for. Im also not saying that anythings the NCMD's fault, as with Chef and Goldplanner, I just think we need to be a bit more pro active in pushing the viewpoint of the responsible majority of us involved in the hobby rather than than the negative aspects of night hawkers and crims getting all the publicity. We're all on the same side, understood some want to just detect and avoid the political side of it, but someone needs to deal with that side if we're to ensure we're still digging freely in 10 years time.

comes down to peeing in the big pot again  ;D,,would be in the guiness book of records if we could find 1 big enough ;D,,,as for tectin in 10 years time,will it be worth it or possible ;),,,that's another thread ;D

There are detectorists on here from the days of the STOP campaign. No doubt there will be Archies still around who have not wavered from the view that the hobby should be banned. Granted, they may now be long in the tooth, but some will have reached the pinnacle of their careers and now in positions of greater influence. It is easier to preach from a position of high standing. With any profession, much of the young blood will aspire to the giddy heights of their mentors, and seniors, often taking up the same views.

About four years ago the Yeovil MDC had a stand at a major agricultural/country show. A family were complementing the club's finds on display. The mother then said that her young daughter who was present, had recently studied Archaeology at University in London. The daughter was full of praise for the hobby and said she had no problems with it at all. She then told us a story about a lecture she had attended, where the lecturer had impressed upon the whole class how evil metal detecting was. She said she didn't believe it, or indeed take it seriously, but many in that class did. It was a class of over 30 and I wonder how many were indoctrinated on that day? So yes there is still a threat and we should not allow complacency to set in.  

Imagine if someone found a hoard of major historical and national importance. Instead of declaring it they tried to sell it piecemeal over time, but were found out. Something of this nature would have serious repercussions for the hobby I am sure. On a lesser scale I am aware of at least three alleged hoards found in Dorset that were allegedly sold off through dealers. So it is not beyond the realms of possibility. Just food for thought!

I have in the past and one of two currently, come across newly qualified archaeologists on various digs who have been taught the evils of the detector whilst at university and have been somewhat critical and at times downright rude to me over a cup of tea at break time. Now as you can expect i always put them straight which for most helped revise their original stance -  an archaeological dig is the best place to demonstrate the inadequacies of the profession they have chosen especially on commercial excavations. The sight of a 360 biting into up to a metre of top/sub soil which is then dumped on an ever increasing mountain of spoil usually brings reality to the fore.

However there were still some who saw that as the removal of unstratifed and as such inconsequential small finds which have little archaeological value especially to the excavation. Besides i have been told archaeology is not about small finds and especially unstratified ones in agriculturally homogenised plough soils !!!! Exactly the attitude i see in some of those who have made it to the top or at least near to, of the greasy pole of promotion and career. These individuals, no doubt influenced by their mentors in the 60/70/80's and the CBA's sponsored STOP Campaign, have retained their original prejudice and continue to maintain it in their dealing with metal detecting and their use anywhere they have a chance to influence be it agri-environment schemes or archaeological excavations.

As for undeclared hoard dispersals - i leave that in the realms of myths and legends which is what i expect they really are developed via Chinese wispers.

Firstly I think it's got to be acknowledged that pre-PAS the majority of archaeologists had little contact with metal detecting other than seeing the results of nighthawking and dig site raiding and so their view was one sided but this of course is the very reason while a more "visual" governing body would have been beneficial.
As to commercial digs using mechanical diggers then I think it's a case of "the boot being on the other foot" in us not understanding or appreciating the word commercial, generally these digs are focussed ie they have an idea of where or what they are looking for and time is money :-\ So their view of topsoil finds being of little importance to the dig is quite true as they work from the bottom up.
Unfortunately we detectorists have taken this view as our mantra for justifying why finds are not recorded "because they are out of context" shows the lack of knowledge in the hobby as context comes in two forms, time (stratification) and place (find location) and so even if a 2000 year old Roman coin is lying on the surface it is in a "place" context.
There is no myth about hoards or treasure finds disappearing into private hands, it has gone on since day 1 and playing the "three wise monkeys" card is what I mean about the greatest danger to the hobby is from the hobby.

thought this subject had gone but nope its reared its ugly head again and wth the same old comments,,,,,lets knock the archaeologists that knock us and say we can do no harm mantra,,sorry guys as Geoff says the danger is from within,,we are not guardians and protectors of finds,we are hobbyists in a hobby where many do not care where and when finds come from,,,and yes things do get sold that should have gone through the system ,,so yes there should be critics of the hobby we brought it on ourselves by the things we did/didn't do and without totally new laws set up to do with detecting that are enforceable we will always be in the spotlight and im not pointing the finger at anybody ,,we are all quilty of the critism we receive regardless of age,experiance etc,,,,,,makes me wonder why people are so very quick to defend the hobby but offer no solution to the bad publicity,,maybe you wont like the answers in which you seek grasshoppers. ;)

We have offered a solution
a new organisation that cares about the hobby and is prepared to fight to defend us against spurious and mostly wrong comments.
Sitting back and doing nothing isnt the answer,

Im going to be dead soon so I could just say sod it all but I care.

As Geoff points out the need to make money form an excavation contract won at the lowest possible price will always see that most of the non strat finds will be lost unrecorded and unwanted to the spoil heaps. However in reality the solution to this lays with the Development Control Archaeologist who perhaps in negotiation with a developers archaeological consultant, decides on what the archaeological brief will be for the excavation. It is at that point that specification of the use of detectors before and during top/sub soil stripping can be added. Some do it as a norm whilst others only pay lip service to the idea and let the archaeological contractor get away with using a cheap detector in the hands of a inexperienced digger. Whatever they decide the brief is what the tenders are based on and so all tenderers are pricing on the same basis so there should be no excuse of the dismisal of the top/subsoil finds as of being no consequence.

In some respects the advent of developer lead excavations has resulted in a loss of a significant amout of archaeological material either as unstrat soil finds or as a result of briefs stating that as little as 5% of a linear feature, for example, is dug and recorded whilst the rest and any stratified finds it contains, is lost when the developer moves in. Seems to me that even an army of nighthawks could never hope to match this level of destruction and it is one sanctioned by the archaeological elite as well.

True it does happen but again you have to understand that archaeology is about recovering information, metal detecting is about recovering finds. So it's not about how many finds you will loose but about how much information you may loose if you spend too much time on the topsoil finds.

 
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe/t/the_salisbury_hoard.aspx&sa=U&ei=bi84UrHBCJDn7Ab_3IG4Dg&ved=0CBgQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNE-R8qU8MpsmDq9swBz_xeDhCM3uw (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe/t/the_salisbury_hoard.aspx&sa=U&ei=bi84UrHBCJDn7Ab_3IG4Dg&ved=0CBgQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNE-R8qU8MpsmDq9swBz_xeDhCM3uw)
Imagine no more.

Now if someone can link me the NCMD's response to this, I would be very grateful.
I'm sure there must be one? I just cant find it.  

Age and health might be a problem,but input is crucial Geoff as cranky old timers we are aware of our limits..But i see 4 possible problems becoming less so..1 Criminals who rob scheduled sites and our now being monitored by a list of names addresses and car plates supplied by the us and general public...2 Old public school and old ivy league university students..This minority who become Arkies,newspaper reporters,media bosses,television moguls e.t.c. blew it in attempt discredit this hobby by picking the worst bits out of a report on nighthawking..without a immediate right of reply from this hobby being granted..It had the opposite affect.......3 In fighting by ourselfs...We can all agree to disagree on any sticky subject but hopefully not at the expense of our national bodies..4.....Is the most important.........PUBLIC OPINION...which can be fickle at times....Iam voluntary helper at local museum where our club has a display and coaches come from all over Britain..The tourists like our display and our hobby is held in high esteem partly because the Staffordshire Saxon Hoard still excites...........It could be turned over night ,but they on our side and we should do our very best keep the public on our side

"Criminals who rob scheduled sites and our now being monitored by a list of names addresses and car plates supplied by the us and general public"
Does this happen? If it does, has anyone been convicted? I ask because I have not heard of this before. :)

"blew it in attempt discredit this hobby by picking the worst bits out of a report on nighthawking..without a immediate right of reply from this hobby being granted" Why should the NMDC have to wait to be asked to reply? They have a website to voice their/our opinion. Clearly the choose not to.

"We can all agree to disagree on any sticky subject but hopefully not at the expense of our national bodies".
Would that be the same "national body" who are supposed to represent us and remain silent whatever s**t is thrown at the hobby?

"Is the most important.........PUBLIC OPINION" 
I couldnt agree more, public opinion is the key. So where does Mr or Mrs G Public go to get a balanced view on metal detecting?

I wouldn't tar all 'public school and ivy leaguers' with the same brush.

Some of us (who wanted to be archies, but haven't done so) might have a more positive view of detecting.

There is some snobbery surrounding detectorists - my in-laws for instance are quite against it (my mother in law is also President of her local historical society) - and it is difficult to change opinions - but doing the 'correct' thing and challenging peoples' perceptions of the detecting fraternity does make a difference.

I'm a member of the Cardiff Archaeological Society - and I might just offer to give a talk on detecting to them (I've also been tempted to write and article for Current Archaeology - I've read every single issue, but my procrastination doesn't help).

"True it does happen but again you have to understand that archaeology is about recovering information, metal detecting is about recovering finds. So it's not about how many finds you will loose but about how much information you may loose if you spend too much time on the topsoil finds"

That may be one way of looking at the situation. However there is a bit of hypocrisy here in that on the one hand the archaeological fraternity want all the information on detecting finds yet on the other are happy to see the continued destruction and loss of small finds on excavations without record. Metallic small finds may only be a part of the picture, but these are very good for dating phases as an additional source of data to go with ceramics and so on. Surely it is better to make decisions with all the available information.
And we all know that commercial excavations are targeted and deal with the cherries in the archaeological cake and the remainder is relegated to perhaps a watching brief, more likley the bulldozer. The limitations need to be appreciated and understood because most detectorists find it difficult to see the merit in losing irreplaceable material because of cost.

In the great scheme of things archaeology has a very small budget with local authorities as at the end of the day it's purely an academic subject, all it does is provide information to inform the next generation of historians and archaeologists. Commercial archaeology companies are contracted to cut down on permanent wages and equipment and the companies are there to make money and I can't see that many detectorists volunteering to check topsoil for no reward :-\

Hey guys, this is getting a little drab now. Take a look at the thread heading and wonder why detectorist are picking on each other
Its our hobby and we all love it, so lets crack on together

Think about whats happening?????? Barforditus has set in. :P

yep come on guys ,weve had 8 pages of comments now to this particular thread,everybody moaning and complaining and turning on each other and not a constructive stamement on how to change the image of detecting apart from set up a new detecting governing body {which aint going to happen} as theres no give in this hobby,,maybe that's why people are falling out ,,,whatever ,were just making ourselves look right prats and confirming all the bad press....time to shut this thread before it does any more damage.

Agreed

How is discussing the future of detecting causing damage?.NOT discussing it will cause damge, burying ones head in the sand is a great way of ignoring the failings that are happening now. Its a credit that people have seen there is a problem and can discuss it.

But no problems. As I said, Ill be dead soon so if thats the way the younger people want to play things.......fine

just enjoy your twilight years  ;) its far easier than banging your head against a wall ;D

Twilight years? Hahaha I like that, it sounds nice and peacefull.
I have a Harley Fat Boy and an AC Cobra Replica that I built, with a 4 litre V8 in that should ensure my 'twilight' years are peaceful and calm.

(http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz199/the_goldpanner/side2.jpg) (http://s827.photobucket.com/user/the_goldpanner/media/side2.jpg.html)

1. Modernise the website.
2. Treasure Trove laws and code of conduct, should be higher placed/have more profile on the home web page.
3. Recognise (on the website)some of the fantastic finds that responsible detectorists have found.
4. Be more vocal (again on the website) in condeming illegal detecting, and backing up resposible detecting when needed.

Theres 4 for starters. I'm no "web wizard" but I would imagine these are all simple fixes?

I'd be interested to hear your views on these Carling2 or anyone else for that matter, For the life of me, I cannot think why anyone would not want to see this happen.  

all 4 very good points that im sure can be sorted but alas it will do nothing to deter the critics of the hobby as there has been a code of conduct going for years and still the anti detecting lobby think that most of us do not follow this conduct or any regulations regarding detecting so just stating again that this is what we are sopposed to do is going to cut no ice with the anti tectin league,...only 1 way to make any headway with the anti tectin bunch is send the ncmd a list of proposals that we as hobbyists can change the way we detect and that my mate is not going to happen as ,,lets be honest here we are not all whiter than white and any restrictions that please the anti tectin lobby means more restrictions for everybody,,,see my 9 point plan earlier in this thread would you agree to it? but the anti tectin lobby would love it ,but once again getting everybody to agree to anything more that ties the hobby up will not happen ,,my advice ,, go with the flow.

Thanks for the reply Carling2, I've just got back in from work.  I'll answer your post later if thats ok when I have a bit more time? :)

I have no issue with any of these Carling, I'd also add "anyone that finds ANYTHING at all gets a week in Goldpanners Cobra with free petrol" 
Sorry its taken me this long to reply had some "real life issues" to deal with.

The B.B.C..asked Trevor Austin for a interview on what he understood was just a general piece on our hobby ,with a question on nighthawking included........Some of that interview was edited...Trevor was not  happy and he complained to the programme boss that he was not fully informed that they were niitpicking the Nighthawking Survey.........Draw your own conclusions on what you think of certain elements in the media........We can all be made foolish by the enemies of this hobby..You will remember in the ceighties the lettters sent sent to every M..P. ......By the friends of the hobby..That was good P.R. :)

When was the interview conducted Rob?

I recall the interview was on a snowy day a couple of years ago near to the battle of Towton in Yorkshire. The other interviewees included Pete Wilson of English Heritage. There was also another interview by Trevor aired on Countryfile around the same time and out of the woodwork popped up Tony Robinson who was given plenty of air time to rubbish detecting.
Moral of the story - you are wasting your time expecting to get good air time on detecting matters as there is always a hidden agenda as was seen with the story at the start of this thread. The Greek archaeologist, who made his statements on metal detecting, was invited to study his chosen research topic on looting from archaeological sites, at Cambridge University, by none other than Lord Renfrew, current chair of the TVC. A bit more enquiry also showed that one of his supervisors for his PhD is a friend of the vexatious blogger with incredibly itchy underpants's and so the interview with the German media co was a set up from the start as they normally are.
Leave well alone the thoughts of being able to put the case for metal detecting or any other associated issue in a media interview. Remember the old journalist adage -  never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Thanks for the update Remix.

its been taken to hysterical levels ,as theres far worse crime going on at night in rural areas ask tony martin.
cattle and sheep rustling, oil storage tanks looted ,plant and machinery worth 1000s stolen.
(which are compensated on insurance)
.i would expect any finds made by hawks to be minor as its difficult enough in daylight to make finds.
but its been ramped up so seriously by certain people ,so that theres now an expensive manhunt going on.
the TV progs now give the impression that a fortune is being stolen at night by hawks whereas its prolly very minor in value and historical interest

My specialist said i had between 10&15yrs for my P.D.....but that f------r does not know how bloodyminded i am Goldpanner and i suspect that your bloodyminded for another 20yrs  ;D ;D

 ;) your so very wrong ,im past being bloody minded ,,  ;) I just don't give a monkeys ;D,,so I tell it like it is.

Galoshers you are right there are worse crimes going on, but that doesn't mean that farmers are not concerned by nighthawking on their land. Most farmers take a dim view of any intrusion on their land especially when an illegal metal detectorist has left his newly seeded field full of holes!

Geoff and Carling are right about the biggest danger coming from within the hobby itself. I made an earlier post on this thread about alleged hoards being sold off through dealers. It was said that this was in the realms of myths and legends and really just Chinese whispers. I used the word 'alleged' loosely as all the incidents I believe to be fact. I have actually seen photos of one hoard. The other incidents did not come down to me via a long chain either. From what I have gleaned over the years I believe it has been a big problem in my County and probably still is.

Yes some detectorists struggle to find any thing decent, and most finds are run of the mill. However, there are other detectorists who are consistently blessed with good luck. Sometimes it is just that 'good luck' but also it is a question of good research and having prime land. A Nighthawker is not constrained by getting permissions, they will just go where they like, and when they like. I imagine most Nighthawkers just bumble along with very little reward. Others are very well organised and professional in their approach. Be under no illusion, they are finding items of both monetary value and historical significance.

I will not go into more depth on this site as it will only serve to drag the hobby down more. If anyone would like to know more I will be only too happy to discuss in more detail via a pm or by phone.

Just one point I'd like to make here outside of what Cardiffian has already said is in relation to


The historical importance of finds is relative to where they were found and very few are of little interest, each is a piece of a jigsaw puzzle for the history of a site, condition is of no importance, function is. ;)

i know a gent who is a hawk ,he gives me reports about his nocturnal habits.its like a Benny Hill sketch ,chased by farmers with searchlights in the am ,bumping into and rowing with other hawks in the am, lampers out with rifles and getting into arguments with them .generally farting around with no results .
he has to park miles away and walk as the cops are soon onto a lone parked car .

occasionally he finds a coin but not often ,its mostly a complete waste of time and petrol .

And you haven't reported him?

I wouldn't be happy sitting there  hearing his stories knowing how this person's  spoiling your hobby he won't  get away with it forever i hope.

as myself and others have stated the danger to this hobby lies within itself ,,and what if galoshers reports his nighthawking friend ,, the guy will only deny it or probably put some surprising names into the mix of known associates ,,I know it happened to me once after some bloke approached me to go nighthawking,,the guy denied it when confronted but he gave me a list of his nightmates  ;D

i am not grassing on a bloke i know ,i have advised him but he is desperate to make finds .

Then I'm afraid morally you're just as guilty as he is, guilt by association, accessory after the fact, call it what you will, none are pretty.
Tell you what, I'll do you a favour, pm me his details and I'll report him for you ;D

What! :o you mean there are criminals out there that are so heinous and dastardly that they deny what they've done? No no surely not, every arrest I made the perpetrator always put the arms out in front of themselves and said "fair cop governor".
What's the world coming too? ;D

so you get his details then what ? he doesn't go out every night and how would you prove it ?
then theres 100s more at it all over the land .you cant eliminate them all .
he has hawking mates as well .(one sells his finds to buy heroin )
i dont know their details .

so far 1s desperate to make finds?? arnt we all ? ok maybe not to that extent  ;D and 1s a bag head, ok I soppose its better than robbing old ladies to buy crack ,,, but seriously both are no exscuse to nighthawk.

Mate I'm not having a go but  you need to eliminate nighthawks from your  area one way or another if you know them.  surely you can see your local farmers will one day get feed up with repairing fences holes left in ground and everything else that goes with it  you need a  serious chat with this gent or all your local farms will finish you off.

What! He takes his life in his hands everytime he goes out, risks getting shot, walks miles, wastes loads of time and petrol but continues to hawk for just an occasional coin..... yeh right!! Sounds like a bulls#@#ter as well as a hawker. Do you know how they justify it. They will say they can't get land and "the land belongs to everyone anyway".

The truth is nearly everyone will get land if they try hard enough, and knock on enough doors. Look how many newbies come on this site and say they can't get permission to detect. Then over the next weeks, after their initial struggle, we see their posts enthusing how they have picked up a permission, and then another.

This guy you know should get off his ar#e and get permissions legitimately. In a lot of cases they will be nighthawking the permissions you and I have worked hard to obtain. They are not only shafting the hobby, they are shafting every responsible detectorist in the hobby as well.

he doesn't live in my area he moved to Lincoln so he don't bother me.
i agree with what you all say but i am not an enforcer for miscreants all over the land.

and there you have it ladies and gents,its a case of there not on my permissions so who cares,thats why the hobby get the critics it does and why nigthawking is a problem that will never go away. ...I think there should be a pole put on topics with the simple question, do you know anybody that nighthawks {just to get a idea of numbers} I think you,ll be surprised how many yes answers they,ll be. 

I think people should get a grip being a nighthawk doesn't mean a person is bad person I have known people who have done this in the past and they are top blokes I don't think we have a right to judge when we don't know these people personally. if they want to do that then they know the consequences of doing this. myself I just love history and that's why I do this hobby not for finding anything valuable i m just as happy finding an old buckle as I am a silver  or gold coin

Oh I'm sure there are plenty of murderers and sex offenders who are not "bad people" overall. Nighthawks are no friend of history or detectorists, they are the stick that the heritage lobby use to beat us. At the end of the day nighthawking is a criminal offence and that's it.

Surely a crime is a crime whichever way you paint it. And a criminal is still a criminal
however nice he or she may be.

Along with the question: Have you ever reported them?

a night hawker is hardly a hardened criminal   ::)l if you were to go down the route of a criminal is a criminal most of us would at some point be breaking the law. you may of eaten a bag of chips that were made using Polish potatoes  this would be illegal I don't condone night hawking but in reality very little is often found and the poilce need to deal with proper serious crime not looking around fields at night where they may find someone digging up an old coin

Theres a  big difference  between  unknowingly eating a bag  of chips made from
Polish potatoes. and intentionally commiting a crime, because thats what nighthawking is.Trespassing on someone else's land and stealing, Not for the interest of past history,
but solely for financial gain.

I'm afraid the old

is a rumour started by and promoted by nighthawks themselves. I guarantee that if it wasn't worth it this scum wouldn't be doing it :-\

i just think its up to them i don`t see how they can find more stuff as there is no guarantee when your out detecting i,ve been out loads and found nothing some days. yes they shouldn't be trespassing but its there problem its the risk they take i don`t know them to call them scum i just don’t judge someone’s choices without first knowing them or their reason.

Steve the majority of Nighthawkes aren't just popping on to any old field to detect, they have done their research and target either sites that have proven productive for fellow detectorists or sites that the odds are better such as scheduled hillforts,villas etc.
They know the laws and they choose to brake them, in fact they have researched and planned to brake them and every item they steel has gone forever, no one can ever replace the possible information that the items hold.
While your "judge not" philosophy is a laudable one, by extension a child molester may have good reasons and they do, they're ill. We're not judging innocence or guilt, we're talking about people who DO go out and nighthawk, what possible defence can they have?

its hard enough in the daytime,petrol has gottten to dear for hakws to drive long distances so they stay more local nowadays is what i am hearing.
crumby coins is mostly found nothing nice at all.

joblessness wears them down so they partake of hawking at night for something to do with their time.

so they,ll be alright on this new tory ,work for nothing scheme for the jobless,,then they might be to tired to go out at night  ;D,,,,something to do with there time ? doh,  I know im bored I,ll go and trespass,steal knowingly in the midde of the night wtf? 

All I know is that I have been to farms to ask for permission and have been told NO as they have had problems with people detecting on their land without permission and making a hell of a mess. Whatever their reasons for doing it, and whatever your view on it might be it DOES have an effect on us personally and on our hobby. Doesn't take much for that farmer to tell his farming chums and before you know it whole areas are off limits, It might not effect you now in your area but it might in the future, only takes one hawker to spoil it for loads of responsible people.

poachers have been poaching for generations but no police patrols and helicopters with searchlights hunting them down at considerable cost and manpower for those scrotes

But a poacher doesnt take away historical items. Fish regenerate, Antiquities dont

I have met nighthawkers at rallies and have told them in no uncertain terms what i think about them and i know its hard to prove a case against them...Stever these criminals dig  holes on top of buildings on scheduled sites and in the past have used lorries to cart away soil from Roman/Celt temple sites probably littered with gold and silver artefacts to detect at there own leisure..In the Durham area the criminals are running scared ,because there car n.o.s and addresses are noted...These criminals are small in number and why should the whole hobby be tarred with the same brush by the antidetecting brigade whose whole aim is to destroy this wonderful hobby? >:( >:(

I don't understand why thery don't they excavate the scheduled sites to clear them of artifacts so that they are protected forever then that way the hawkers will have to get permission for land to detect on just like the rest of us that would stop the incentive for them.

The amount of information that can be accumulated by excavation has increased 10 fold in the last 30 years and this advancement in research technology is expected to continue so why should we have loose possibly valuable information due to a band of thieves?

yeah ive heard of him looked him up on twitter,the guy is a complete idiot,university degree or not,and if he wants to poke his soddin nose in he should sod off back to greece and do it.
ban detecting completely?how would that work?
lets look at beaches.....constantly washed by the sea,battered by the wind and elements in general.
what happens one day when some bod walking along the beach sees an old pot picks it up and takes it to a museum,what happens does he get prosecuted for damaging an archeological site...i doubt it.
or you buy a nice big country retreat after winning the lottery lots of history, 30 acres,but no schedule or anything.
how will they police you not hunting on your own property?
also what if you dont even detect you just get your jcb out and dig yourself a garden pond and find 100,000 gold coins.....have you broken the law?
i cant see how it could be done.
an

lol i love it..the guy is an idiot mate you summed it up.....he's obsessed with the elgin marbles( if thats how its spelt)and he's on a rest of his life witchhunt and look who's in the frame?ive only just given up shooting as i dont like the bad press.
i thought to myself nice peacefull hobby out in the countryside again and maybe find a few quid and here we go again.

have a look on all the forums over a year and the finds are mostly a load of old tat ,that even a dodgy coin dealer wouldnt buy .
knackered tokens and coins whilst interesting are not historical items of any great note ,except to support an industry of self important twerps on a nice salary .
majority of finds have no value at all.
just interesting .

i agree this is true,but there are the exception like the staffs hoard etc but that having been said its not like it gets kept in a cupboard and weighed in at the local cash a cheque/gold dealer shop is it?
to make any money it all has to be declared and purchased by whichever museum.
this guy is obviously an arse who really hasnt got much of a life if he's chasing people like us over a few old coins and the odd bit of broken sword or whatever.

I was not going to add to this anymore BUT:  They all have solid points, albeit way too strong. Archaeology is a fragile research procedure which needs to be practised with as much caution  as possible to gain as much info as can be recovered, but detectorists (responsible ones) more often than not have given them the lead in the first place. We tend to become the targets for excuses as to why these areas are discovered, with the blacker side of our hobby the "Night Hawkers", dragging us into a never ending argument.
Personally i would readily shop these guys in with great pride, as I am sure many of us would. We have a great hobby which brings us all together socially on both rallies and via web sites like this.
I am sure that there are Archaeologists reading this thread waiting to be slagged off, but I for one respect them for their efforts, but not to their blindness and stubbornness to the realisation that detectorists are a great help and are here to stay. 
Amen, thats my last say  ::)

I have had a great insight into the mind of an accomplished nighthawk. He was unemployed for a great length of time but I can clearly state he wasn't nighthawking having been worn down by joblessness. Once in a job, and no longer 'worn down' he didn't curtail his nocturnal activities. Why should he when he still had his weekends free? This guy was (and probably still is) carrying on for years. He never operated alone, and had at least two different partners. He was at times most likely out 4 or 5 times a week. This guy was up with the best of them when it came to knowledge, and the history of the county. Most of the county was fair game. Like us all he has an interest in history but wouldn't hesitate to sell anything of value. He has a dealer at the ready and also acted as a fence for others I've since learned.
 
The truth is, it is an underground activity carried out in secret, so we will never fully realise the extent of it. However, although many maybe amateurish, you only need a few hardened nighthawks like above and the theft is great. Be certain of that! I find it truly amazing that despite the solid argument against nighthawking some people are still making excuses for it.

As Carling said, unless everyone sings from the same hymn sheet and are united in it's condemnation, it will never cease.

We hear about important sites having been discovered by responsible detectorists. What about those being found by Nighthawks. I know of one unrecorded site which could possibly have been a very significant Roman Villa. It was totally wiped clean of metal work over many years at night.

It is such a shame that some people are sadly so misguided in their views on this subject. I bet if every Nighthawk was named there would be some great shocks too.

actually not all hoards get bought by museums ,DNW sold a large one last year split up into small parcels of coins ,it was declared of course and nobody wanted to buy it ,it was a good collection of hammered.
the only major haul i can recall was the roman lions looted from a site but that was ages ago.
the roman helmet was also declared and sold on at auction.

I don't think you would hear about them, that's the whole point and in one perverted way "thank god!" If a hoard to the extent of the Staffs was found and spirited away but information leaked out it would be for metal detecting what Hungerford was for shooting ie the end.

most hoards that are found are recorded but most of them ,though wonderous they may be are not worth a great deal or are not unique  and therefore not wanted by any museum  ,small roman bronze hoards and small purse type hoards come to mind but it still does not  give anybody the right to trespass and steal the things from the land no matter how crappy they are ,,hawking is a crime and even if every find that a nighthawker comes across is total tat ,its still theft and trespassing and gives the hobby and people in it a bad name ,,,if nighthawking is so poor ,,why do it? is it fun to be shafting a hobby that obviously these hawkers cant get enough of.

Sorry everyone for resurrecting this post again. Please don't lynch me for it. On a less contentious note though I notice the post has achieved not far short of 4,000 views. Is this a record for a post? Is there anyway of telling which post has had the most views?

Not even close I'm afraid, the most views for a detecting related thread is "MineLab E-trac VS XP Deus" with 27670 ;)

Cheers for the answer. That is an amazing amount of views on any one topic.

I put a spoof posts on another forum entitled i think.....Going Naked With The E.Trac  and What Would Newly Arrived Aliens Make Of A M.D. Rally ..A great response..still laughing at the replies ;D

I think in Wales everything seems to be wanted to be bought - even small purse hoards.

I am going to add to the debate as we well know that some museums have acquired dodgy treasures from over the world and some museums  cant account for artefacts listed,but now missing from their collections..But we dont label everybody in the museum and archeological world as dodgy...We should denounce publicly the criminal nighthawkers as they are  no part of this geniune hobby..The vast number of people in this hobby are  not in it for gain and spend hundred of hours in an interesting pastime ,to gain knowledge of our past...Do be afraid to go public in defence of our great hobby.. :)

its not commonly known but hawks are like junkies they have to have their fix ,even when the weather is really bad they'll be out in rain and snow from my observations.
no weather is too inclement for them except maybe deep snow. but they will find somewhere even then .
they get tanked in a nearby pub with a few pints then off they go on the hawk .

The more inclement the weather, the more people are in bed with all the hatches battoned down. The less likely anyone will be out and about to catch them. I would hardly have thought an ideal night for detecting would be a brightly lit sky and a full moon.

The whole point of my arguement. You dont want to chair the NCMD do you? you'll get my vote straight away. :)

My two pence worth.

When I give talks to groups/farmers, I explain that 'Nighthawkers' are crimminals with metal detectors as their choice of tool.
You don't call all car mechanics car thieves do you? Yet they carry the same tools
Electricians/plumbers burglars because again, they carry the equipment.
The point we need to be making is not that they give the hobby a bad name, because the inference is that they are a side of the hobby that's not talked and as such part of our ranks. We need to ephasise these are villans who just happen to use the same equipment as the hobbyist.

Mike

they go out in all weathers in desperation !
if theyre sat at home potless and freezing they go out ,simple