DetectingWales.com

I have been waiting for a medieval field to dry out a bit after all the rain we recently had and today decided to pay a visit to see if it was detectable the field had been ploughed and seeded a couple of weeks ago although the farmer has been unable to roll it due to the wet, incidentally this field is just the other side of the road and river were I reported on in Medieval part 1-7. On arrival as can be seen from picture it was a bit chilly but luckily the ground was frozen and stopped the mud sticking to my boots nothing very special in the metallic finds came to light apart from in the picture shown, however one signal which was on higher ground and I have always imagined would be an ideal place for a burial ground and given that  I have had Saxon in the field it always draws me to searching this area, I had dug down  about 20” so it  warmed me up a little as you can imagine however as can be seen apart from the two large pieces of lead I dug out of the hole bone was also appearing I would be interested on any ones opinion as to whether it could be human in which case would clearly warrant a further investigation it could of course just be animal bone any thoughts!!!. Oh and yes I really did think I was on to a hoard it was just one of them deep signals that gets louder and louder the deeper you dig…..ma be next time then. ;D ;D

Hi Spikey

I don't know a lot about human bones but was browsing for info.  I found this interesting, have a look. There are a few other, more medical, sites on line that may help you but I think you 'could' have human bone there.

 http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/how-to-identify-human-bones-have-i-found-one (http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/how-to-identify-human-bones-have-i-found-one)

Val

last pic - centre, right side. could be part of a shin bone, although it is difficult to tell as they are smashed up (quite recently from the looks) maybe the police would be your best bet. the honeycomb inside the bone looks as if it may not have much age to it :o

Human bone contained in an ancient burial has a brown coating unless its cremated bone..I have been invovled in digging early christian burials as part of rescue digs in the past and most human bone is in a poor crumbling condition in my area...But i suggest you have it checked out and might be just be a dog burial ..but who knows Rob

If you decide to report it, your have the archaeologists in to do a test dig evaluation.

If it turns out to be a burial site you can kiss good bye to ever detecting there again as it will be scheduled

Shaun that is so fantasy island mate. There is no way on gods earth that a grave would attract scheduling, I have a whole Romano-British burial ground on one site which isn't scheduled. Generally sites are only scheduled if they have some standing walls (rather than just a floor layer) or have a unique quality ie mosaic etc.

And aren't we in this for the history? if your worried about reporting history then what's your motivation for being in the hobby??

As Rob has suggested Paul, your best bet would be to show it to an FLO, though they would probably need to show it to an "expert" as bones are notoriously difficult to id without specialised training.

If you decide to report it was my exact words Geoff I was not advising him not to,just warning the chap of the possible out come


If there is a cemetery and a settlement on the same field the field would be scheduled end of story


You then have an issue of archaeologists coming on to the farmers land disrupting there daily farming activities,this alone would make farmers think twice at allowing you back on there land.


I am all for reporting treasure finds,but there is no way I would lead an archaeologist to any of my sites,and your living in a  fantasy world if you think any different, because I would estimate that only a few % in the hobby would be so stupid to.

I am in the hobby for many reasons

I love detecting, it gets me out of the house an gives me some exercise

I have a keen interest in ancient artefacts and coins

I am not in the hobby for money like 60% + ? of the detectorist in this country

I rarely sell any of my finds unless I have duplicates,or the coin is a common type, and need some cash to buy a new detector  ;D

I'm sorry but your showing a clear case of "a little knowledge is dangerous" not settlement sites nor burial grounds are scheduled as a norm. Nor do Archaeologists come and dig up graves unless there is a danger to them, also when excavations take place it's with the permission of the land owner and not against their will.

Geoff I am aware that archaeologists require the land owners permission to carry out any archeological digs on there property.

But if they go on there and find a massive ancient settlement or Town, the site would them be scheduled pretty quick

Even when sites are not scheduled you then have the night hawking community taking an interest in the land concerned,the end result would be the farmer would not want the hassle, and not give his permission for anyone to detect his land again.

There are hundreds of scheduled settlement sites around the country many of them have bank and ditches surrounding them

Hill forts were often used as settlement sites (fortified settlement)

Oh and I studied archaeology to an o level standard so yes I do have a passion for history

But I would never give the exact location of a find to a FLO officer, because your then giving an open information to any one to access the information and try and get on your sites.
    
Its the same with the sites you have worked so hard at getting permission for

If you report anything of interest, and archeological excavations are carried out,the information is then out there for any one to access and these people then think to them self's wow that seems a good place to go metal detecting.

Sorry but some of us work very hard for what good sites we have, I would not risk losing them or having every Tom Dick and Harry turning up to detect on them

OK Last time lol
First your argument is fatally flawed.....You say that you wouldn't report it on the basis of it being reported and thus (in your head) scheduled, when this has happened it would attract Nighthawks which would ultimately lead to you loosing permission as the land owner would get fed up ::)
OK anybody noticed the problem with this argument?
If the site is scheduled then you wouldn't be allowed to detect on it regardless of the land owner.

Hill forts and enclosures are standing remains and so are scheduled and there is very little chance of a metal detectorist being the first to report standing remains.

How is "any one" going to know the location of your find if you tell the FLO? have you actually recorded? location information isn't available to the general public.
And lastly I really can't understand how you can say you have a passion for history and then suggest that if you found a "town" you would keep it to yourself, sites of that quality and wayyyyyyyyyy outside your, mine or most peoples scope of competence and the damage you would do in ripping finds out of context would be criminal.

First your argument is fatally flawed.....You say that you wouldn't report it on the basis of it being reported and thus (in your head) scheduled, when this has happened it would attract Nighthawks which would ultimately lead to you loosing permission as the land owner would get fed up
OK anybody noticed the problem with this argument?

Your hard work Geoff

My last word on this  ;D
 
You need to read an understand what i said

Even when sites are not scheduled you then have the night hawking community taking an interest in the land concerned,the end result would be the farmer would not want the hassle, and not give his permission for anyone to detect his land again.

It does not matter if the site is then scheduled or not scheduled.

If an archeological excavation is carried out there is then a record of this,which is available to anyone who wishes to find it.

So if your site is not scheduled there is still a record of any archeological work been carried out, people then can use this to go and detect on your land

Of course if its scheduled you will not be able to go on it again my point in the first place

It will not stop the night hawkers though and further damage to are hobby

If I found a site with a Saxon town on it of course I would keep it to myself as would 70% of people in the hobby would. you have already stated that sites of this importance would be scheduled and you would not be able to detect on it ever again.

Stop dreaming Geoff most people who detect guard there sites. and are extremely secretive to were they detect

How is "any one" going to know the location of your find if you tell the FLO? have you actually recorded? location information isn't available to the general public.

You sure about that? there are sites you can go on and it gives details of the find and the location found.

I found a Roman silver ring bezel, it was reported under the treasure act,in fact it was the first case in Wiltshire

It was found in Corsham Wiltshire and the formation was freely available in the Wiltshire archaeological magazines at the time it can also be found on the Internet

It was declared treasure myself and the farmer received the princely sum of £50

We then had people detecting there with out permission  >:(

For £25.00 you can get the exact location of thousands of finds and sites in the U.K

BUT, much to my surprise, after mentioning that site to a Dyfed Archie. the reponse was that these people really annoyed them because they charged for information that was free from Dyfed.

Go figure !!!!!

Val

Thank you Val  ;D

I think the farmer or land owner should decide . I would like to report any find of  historical importance but would not want to do anything without the consent of the land owner.

People say to me all the time " is it worth anything " ...or ...."if I found it i would'nt tell anyone and sell it" . My reply is always "who are you going to sell it to ?" If you found a gold saxon hoard im betting you would report it for the reward. A burial site would be far more interesting to me though but only with the help of the pros could it be investigated properly and im sure they would'nt mind the finder helping out. It may even open a few doors as far as helping on other sites ya never know......

If i found a gold saxon hoard i would only be to happy to help the archeological dig to retrieve them

I would not want them missing any  ;D

Doc there are lots of people in the hobby that do not declare there finds let alone tell the farmer

They sell them.

Fact of life these people are in the hobby for how much money they can earn from it. 

If I found a site with a Saxon town on it of course I would keep it to myself as would 70% of people in the hobby would. you have already stated that sites of this importance would be scheduled and you would not be able to detect on it ever again.

why would you do that then , saxon coins / artifacts are rare valuable items  and should be shared with everyone , not stuffed into a private collection like yours , as you stated your not in it for the money and rarely sell finds

yes i agree ...im sure there are lots of people who dont tell the farmer. Does the farmer get to see the finds from the rallies ? Im only asking because I dont know, ive only been on 1 rally.

Ok being totally honest here, if there was a saxon town there i would'nt even know it but if i found bones then yes i would report it.

What do you do with your finds then Mike sell them ? or do you get pleasure from having a nice little collection of coins and artefacts.

Do you donate all your finds to a museum for all to enjoy.a lot of finds in museums never see the light of day anyway there stored in vaults

Ok you do not need to declare single coins Saxon or not

You no not have to declare Saxon artefacts either unless there silver or gold.

If I find any treasure items they are reported

But I am not reporting my sites to the Archaeologists to do evaluation digs, on you have to be kidding

Im with you relichunting it takes time to find a good site

Interesting argument chaps, but  surely if you really ARE interested
in ancient history and you found a site of national importance, you'd
want that site recorded professionaly for future generations, and
 put all thoughts of monetary gain or your own private collection to one side  ???

I'm with dryland on this, we have a duty as responsible detectorists to record all the finds, [not just treasure]. so that the experts can refer to the information recorded as and when they need to.

the 'whats in it for me' approach, needs to be shelved so that the 'whats in it for the nation' can take over.  Responsible detectorists who have recorded all their finds have helped improve our understanding of our nations history. Those who fail to record and then keep their finds without a record of the findspots, are only supporting the argument by those who condemn detecting as a whole.

In my opinion, keeping landowners informed and recording with PAS/UKDFD has to be the basic requirement of all detectorists.

Well I've reported a site that I thought was possibly of Welsh national importance and what has happened so far....DIDDLY SQUAT.
I reported this site direct, face to face, to a Dyfed Archie.in the Summer 2011.  I thought she was going to swoon. Oh, Oh, Ah, Ah, Well, Oh my, Oh my, that is interesting, were the immediate comments. And then nothing, for months.
Finally after mentioning it to another Archie. on another different project, it was mildly investigated and confirmed, complete with Lidar readings. Now bear in mind this site is possib.Bronze Age and is approx 500ft  diameter, it's huge, much bigger than Stone Henge and it's in WALES. You'd think it would creat some instant interest, wouldn't you.
NO. They don't have the funds for excavation but it will be recorded as a site of signifcant interest.
That was way back in May.(the second report|) I'd like to know WHEN.
I'd love everyone to know about it. And I'd be very proud if I was assoiated with it. That would be reward enough for me.

Val

since joining cardiff scan  club early this year i record my finds EVERY month with mark ludwick and give hime accurate find spots for all items , he'svery helpfull and appreciates the material he collects fromus and other welsh clubs .

personally i have no problem selling finds , its finding the saleable ones is the problem lol , if i were ever lucky enough to find a bit of treasure or a deserted saxon village i would be more than happy to let him know about it , :) :) :)

...........................anyway about them bones , if their not human can i have em' for the dog , he likes a nice crunchy old bone  :D :D :D :D :D :D

So you have no problem selling your finds to be stuffed into a private collection like mine  ;D

I have a small collection of hammered coins and artifacts,i never find anything of huge value

We do have a few fields that produce a few Saxon items, and before anyone asks i am not telling you  ;D

 :D :D :D

i just hope that you've recorded the saxon finds on the national databases!

Nice one Mike  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Saxon - Strong Arm of the Law (music video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XH-nErgnO8#)


 :D :D :D :D :D ,

I did not realise there was a saxon finds national database  ???

are you thinking of the UKDFA

All are finds are reported to the local FLO every few months,we give her so much she usually only takes the bits that interest her for example musket balls  ;D

I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but I had problems with recording with  UKDFD someone on admin at one time just happened to have access to find spots. He  was like a kid in a sweet shop with that information. Caused a lot of problems around the Ross on Wye area, so I just wonder who you can trust nowadays.I now record my information on my own data base, but it won't be released until 2020.

That's the problem you just do not know who to trust.  ::)

Recording your own information on your own personal data base,now that's an excellent idea

As you say you could then release the information in say 10 years time.

well I think its a KFC box that's been hidden....if you look the bone to the right is a drumstick...?

Good Q &A everybody. But was'nt the original question about the identification of the bones?  Irrespective of any other finds on the site, saxon or bloody umpalumpa, the onus is on the finder to get the bones id' as human or not. everything else is really up to the individual. although I do think that the attitude of 'any finds that I find are mine and nobody elses' plays into the hands of the anti detecting league :(

I am sure that most people are happy to report treasure items and in a lot of cases they never see them again,oh yes they then get a paultry reward  ;D


Chef stated

As Rob has suggested Paul, your best bet would be to show it to an FLO, though they would probably need to show it to an "expert" as bones are notoriously difficult to id without specialised training

Wronly advised that the finder should pass these bones to his local FLO  ;D


As this is Chefs favourite quote to me i think he needs to have it said to him

a clear case of "a little knowledge is dangerous Chef


If you suspect you have found human remains you report it straight to the police


Finding Human Remains

It is not unusual to find human bones eroding out of sand dunes and on beaches. While
it can sometimes be difficult to tell some human skeletal parts apart from animal bones it
is important to report your discovery, if you think you may have found human remains.
This is a legal requirement,in order to establish whether the human remains are
archaeological, or in fact part of a modern crime scene.
It is far more likely that the remains you find belong to a dead animal, rather than a
human. The most obvious human bones are the skull, the long bones and the pelvis.
Figure 1 shows the bones of the human body. Compare what you have found to the
diagram. To get an idea of how large the long bones of a human are, think of the size of
your own bones. In general, a sheep has much shorter long bones, and a cow much
thicker ones. Because you shouldn’t disturb a human burial, a photograph can again be
very helpful.
If you think you have found a human
skeleton, the first thing to do is to contact
your local police station who will visit the
site and make a report.It is important that
you leave the bones where you found
them and that you do not disturb the site.
Once you have contacted your local police
station you do not need to do anything
else. If the Police take no further action the
case passes Historic England, who may
send a team of archaeologists to examine
the site.

an easy way to understand bones  :D :D :D

The Skeleton Dance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e54m6XOpRgU#)

I've got an arthritic thumb bone  ;D

It is a interesting topic,if someone did find a huge hoard of gold coins would it be better to tell the world and become famous as a great treasure hunter or keep it to them selves and sit on it like gollum aka smegal??? Or sell them on ebay haha Maybe people may get worried the arcees may take there glory and steal the fame or as a earlier message stated that they will probably be locked in a room somewhere,the fact is not every find is recorded because why should it be??is it really worth the hassle ?? Do arcees really solve the riddle to where it came from ??? What's the difference between a metal detectorist researching an area getting permission and digging to a archee finding a site shutting it down as a site of scientific interest ??? I find a lot of archees rude towards the run of the mill detectorist...surely we are the same thing ??? I think if I found a great amazing site I'd have to think about it for a long time before I let anyone else in just like farmers who know there are Celtic/roman buildings on there land to potentially lose that land ??? It's a hard topic I think we should all get along  ;D I feel that if you think you've found something of importance then it should be recorded if you don't feel like its a huge find then it shouldn't matter if its not recorded but that's just my view :)

What I'd like to know is,     Where is CelticSpikey ?  Just look what he's started and now he's disapeared, ducked for cover, left the Country. Is he with Nobby ??

We seek him here, we seek him there. Come on spikey, dont be shy. ;D

By the way, I've changed my mind. I think they're animal.

Val

Well Shaun I'm afraid it's coming back to you lol
Now bearing in mind that I'm ex-military police and we have to know the law of the realm in the same way as our civi counterparts and the workings of them, I can assure you that unless you find a pelvis, skull or clavicle then the police will ask you if you have shown it to an archaeologist, if you say no then they will advice you to call the county archi and if it is human then they will be called by him/her and will come back.
It may not be the letter of the law but that's the way it is. ;)

Oh dear oh dear Geoff are you any good at chess i would love a game some day

I hate been wrong mate, so will argue to the cows come home  ;D

If you think you may have found human remains This is a legal requirement,in order to establish whether the human remains are archaeological, or in fact part of a modern crime scene.

So

You do not remove them and take them to your local FLO as you and others have advised

By removing them potentially criminal evidence has been disturbed.

If you think you have found a human skeleton, the first thing to do is to contact your local police station who will visit the site and make a report.

It is important that you leave the bones where you found them and that you do not disturb the site.

They could be human remains that are part of a modern crime scene, so serious business really,so members should be advised the correct procedure.

by contacting the police you have followed the letter of the law

It is then the police responsibility to call out an expert or county archaeologist to identify the bones not yours

We are not responsible to do the police work for them

RJM  may have some advise on this subject ?

OK which part of common sense don't you get?
The clue is "if you think you have found human remains".....Now if we knew we had found human remains we wouldn't need to show them to the FLO would we? I'll help you on this one, the answers no.
But we don't know what the bones are do we? and that's why we show them to the FLO. See simple isn't it lol

Geoff states

But we don't know what the bones are do we? and that's why we show them to the FLO. See simple isn't it

Exactly so they could be human and you report them to the police which you are required to do by law,you certainly do not remove them  ::)

Most normal people who go out detecting could not tell the diffrence between a human bone or an animal bone this thread is a good example.

Common sense tells you to report it to the police as you are required to do by law

For gods sake it could be the remains of a murder victim for all you know

Members need to know the correct procedure on what to do if they find what could be human bones

If they are unsure if the bones are human or animal they still need to report it to the police

I have given the correct information and thats my last word on the subject  ;D  

i was always aware that if you come across what you think could be human bones then you have to inform the police firstly  :-\ ......thankfully i havnt come across any lol

BOO!   Oh my god what have I done talk about a hornets nest :o, first of all thanks to you all for your  interest  particularly Geoff and Shaun’s lengthy comments ;D, and for Val who wondered where I had emigrated to ;) well I am still around Val however I have had so much trouble with not being able to connect to the internet due to modem problems ???? and I am  currently awaiting a second modem  being sent from Talk Talk as the first one was apparently faulty? So bear with me if I am not around for another day or so. At present I do not believe the bones are human and there was certainly no sign of any skull, scapula or pelvic in the hole so for the time being and until I see farmer I will wait, had it been a recent burial I am sure much more bone would have come up! Thanks again will keep you up dated oh and will try ASAP to get back to field. Hope you all had a happy Christmas.

Now that's a relief.  We haven't lost him after all. ::)

Val