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Metal Detecting Discussions => Beat the Doc... Identify your finds here => Topic started by: jamiepearce on January 15, 2012, 07:51:55 PM



Title: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: jamiepearce on January 15, 2012, 07:51:55 PM
Can any one please help id this roman coin that i found at lysander park rally 2011.Your help is is very appreciated.thanks.Jamie


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: The Doc on January 15, 2012, 08:23:45 PM
It's what you quoted Sam Moorhead said it was on Roger's forum.


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: legio11augustus on January 15, 2012, 08:26:44 PM
maybe you could put up what the lettering is


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: jamiepearce on January 15, 2012, 09:05:50 PM
It's what you quoted Sam Moorhead said it was on Roger's forum.
thankyou for confirming your opinion.I am new to all this and this is my first roman coin and i want to find out everything i can and although I'm very grateful for Sam's time and thoughts sugar7 had doubts and suggested trying you guys...so does this mean you agree with Sam on all points?


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: handyman [Alan} on January 15, 2012, 09:06:45 PM
Sam is the ultimate expert in ID'ing roman coinage. Read his articles in the last 5 issues, of 2011 in treasure hunter magazine


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: jamiepearce on January 15, 2012, 09:11:30 PM
maybe you could put up what the lettering is

....seems to have DN..? on one side and i can not understand the lettering on the other....possibly Greek?


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: handyman [Alan} on January 15, 2012, 09:14:06 PM
..or latin?


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: sugar on January 15, 2012, 11:34:33 PM
 my thoughts are this if the coin has been overstamped but we can clearly see the old coin wouldnt it be great to have the old coin id'd why do we want to know about what they have stamped over the top. i suggested jamie put it up on here as i thought someone may be able to throw some light on not the latest coin but the original coin which i find is most interesting maybe depicting zeus

 i may of course be misunderstanding what has been said by the museum but i thought your answer was a little curt as he was only doing as i suggested so he could find out more
 
   the fact that it has now a stamp with the fallen horseman on bears no relevance to the original coin that can be seen clearly SORRY JAMIE

  


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: jamiepearce on January 16, 2012, 08:11:37 AM
please don't be sorry.....you have been a great help....and the fact we are still trying to understand this very intresting coin means its got a story to tell.........so intresting........sorry the doc cant help......THANKS TO ALL


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: Chef Geoff on January 16, 2012, 08:31:30 AM
Hi Jamie and Sugar, I'm afraid you would have too enlighten 90% of the members as I for one haven't got a clue what the hell your talking about.
What was the answer posted on RR? What was the id of Sam Moorhead and why don't you believe him?


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: nobby on January 16, 2012, 08:36:43 AM
and what was the man with the dark glasses,long rain coat and smoking a cigarette standing on the corner doing there???...... the plot thickens 8)......
 :D :D :D


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: Chef Geoff on January 16, 2012, 09:06:08 AM
Oh and well done on your first Roman they will come thick and fast now, I hope all the others you find will be a lot easier for you to id. ;)


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: sugar on January 16, 2012, 10:55:14 AM
  hi i need to take responsibility for asking jamie to put the coin up without the report from the museum so  as not to fog the issue of a id for this coin
 i am sure i can see maybe zeus on one side and am excited about any information that someone may be able to come up with
 
 i would love some help even on what you are seeing and then when the museum report is added perhaps some help with the understanding thankyou in advance for any comments

 


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: Chef Geoff on January 16, 2012, 11:51:19 AM
Why Zeus ???
My honest first impression was that it was a coin of Septimius Severus issued from one of the Greek regional mints, many of which show two heads, some of which are by coincidence Zues.


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: sugar on January 16, 2012, 01:23:56 PM
Why Zeus ???
My honest first impression was that it was a coin of Septimius Severus issued from one of the Greek regional mints, many of which show two heads, some of which are by coincidence Zues.


 
not a zeus coin but a coin depicting zeus so whether it be septimius severus or whoever we may discover it is from  my first initial sighting of the coin i thought it looked like zeus  thankyou for that info i will check severus coins for these two headed coins you are talking about and see if anything turns up thankyou for your time  


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: legio11augustus on January 16, 2012, 08:36:49 PM
still would like a ,heads up on the lettering ...my eyesights rubbish


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: sugar on January 16, 2012, 08:43:42 PM
still would like a ,heads up on the lettering ...my eyesights rubbish

  all i can make out is a big N at nine o clock on the coin just cant make anything else out so its really a matter of any ideas on who the bust is?????? which will help me research the reverse 


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: handyman [Alan} on January 16, 2012, 08:58:53 PM
if sam moorhead couldn't identify the bust, i doubt if we can .. but  you never know!!  ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: nomad on January 16, 2012, 09:00:38 PM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: Chef Geoff on January 16, 2012, 09:28:33 PM
Ahh! Alan you put too much faith in the "experts" ;D
This is one from your part of the country;
(http://finds.org.uk/images/thumbnails/16186.jpg)(http://finds.org.uk/images/thumbnails/16187.jpg)
Object type: Mount

Broadperiod: Iron Age

County of discovery: Northamptonshire


Now what do you think of that? believe it?

Not a word from you Doc as I know you've seen it


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: handyman [Alan} on January 16, 2012, 09:34:21 PM
LOl -- you been looking through my finds box  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: Tafflaff (Rob) on January 16, 2012, 09:34:58 PM
looks modern to me


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: handyman [Alan} on January 16, 2012, 09:36:35 PM
i had one identified similar to that as a tankard lid lifter ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: sugar on January 16, 2012, 09:37:58 PM
  i do hope that jamie will put up the report from the museum and see if you can give us your opinion
 geoff thanks for your time in looking


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: Chef Geoff on January 16, 2012, 09:40:07 PM
I've found loads of them over the years, they are from the valve of a ball cock in a trough ;D But this is the PAS record for it.


Part of a copper-alloy mount. The mount is in the form of a stylised horses head. A circular perforation 5 mm in diameter forms the horse's eye. It has broken at the neck of the horse. The mount has been cast as casting flashes are visible along its edges. It is possible that this item is Iron Age or Roman in date.

And heres one I found the other week, complete with it's...um...neck ;D

(http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv294/Chef_02/231111.jpg)


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: handyman [Alan} on January 16, 2012, 09:41:34 PM
LOl -- i like the word 'possible'.

what date was it recorded?


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: jamiepearce on January 16, 2012, 09:52:04 PM
 :owhoops... :-[.sorry if i upset or confused any one?... ???...........only i have been looking for an id on this coin for some time and have put it on other forums keen to get a full understanding of its history(especially as its my first roman coin :)) i was directed to Sam moorhead of the British museum(please see below) who very kindly gave me a full description of the coin and has begun to record it on the database  it was suggested on other forums' rally UK' and 'rogers relics' that there may be a bit more to the coin and that your panel of experts may be able to give me some new thoughts to its history. :-\ ;..every bodies help is appreciated as I'm totally new to all this. ;D........thanks Jamie

 Dear Jamie,
Thanks for the email
What has happened is that a coin with a bust right (and possible a phoenix on the reverse – but not visible) struck in 348-50 has been overstruck with another coin (by a forger) with another bust (over the phoenix side) and a soldier advancing left spearing a fallen horseman over the earlier bust (which is still visible).  This occurred around 355-61 when many copies were overstruck on earlier coins.  This happened because the earlier coins were no longer legal tender; only the fallen horseman types were.  So, people copied the fallen horseman types on earlier coins.
If you look at the coin, you will see the falling horseman on the left with his arm outstretched.
If you send the find information, then I will put on the database where you will be able to read my notes in detail.
With best wishes.Sam
 
 
  
 




Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: Chef Geoff on January 16, 2012, 10:06:08 PM
I don't mean to be rude in asking, in fact quite the contrary, are you relatively new to the hobby? I ask as your enthusiasm is a credit to you. Some of us old dogs get a little weary of finding coins such as this as the true origin I fear to say is probably lost in the dim and distant past, as around the period in question the Empire had a great many mints with 1000 times more unofficial coin forgers all working from their own dyes. many of which were loose representations to say the least.
I will have a trawl through known types to see if I can get a close style but this will probably still leave you with a few emperors and a 50 year dating ;)


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: jamiepearce on January 16, 2012, 10:22:56 PM
Thanks for your help chef......yes new to forums and research and only been detecting for 14 months.........I love it!...and have been blown away with the knowledge bouncing around these forums.Thanks again.


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: herbie on January 16, 2012, 10:25:17 PM
Dane a Wildwinds has always been really helpful whenever I've been stuck for an ID on a Roman (which is a lot :D).


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: nobby on January 17, 2012, 10:03:04 AM
lol i ve had one of those ballcock parts....im sure Neil ID it for me at the time ;)


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: sugar on January 17, 2012, 11:05:12 AM
  yes ball cock or not ball cock BUT has anyone any thoughts on the REPORT from the museum please anyone throw any light
 i am interested in the original coin and not anything that has been overstamped on it i still cant see the original coin was mid fourth century as it look alot earlier and comments about the COIN and not the BALL COCK will be gratefully received THANKS for your help


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: Chef Geoff on January 17, 2012, 11:18:07 AM
Sugar I have posted that I will look, The original coin is still after 270 AD in portraiture style and probably not far from the mid 4th century.


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: sugar on January 17, 2012, 11:35:29 AM
Sugar I have posted that I will look, The original coin is still after 270 AD in portraiture style and probably not far from the mid 4th century.


  sorry geoff thanks for that just trying to get back on track thankyou for your time


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: legio11augustus on January 17, 2012, 03:16:57 PM
its difficult to see wich is original and wich is the overstruck,lettering wise would it be poss too illuminate original  markings with red highlighter


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: sugar on January 17, 2012, 04:38:01 PM
its difficult to see wich is original and wich is the overstruck,lettering wise would it be poss too illuminate original  markings with red highlighter

 i really hope jamie can do this for you as personally i cant quite see them so i am in the same situation as you but it would be great to get bigger photos and as you say markings where the overstruck coin is
 all i see is two heads defo need some better glasses 


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: legio11augustus on January 17, 2012, 07:02:46 PM
lol sugar ye , better pics would be a start im intrigued now


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: Chef Geoff on January 17, 2012, 07:22:05 PM
OK well firstly the best method to id Roman coins from the 4th century is by the reverse, unfortunately we don't have that luxury. So we are left with just part of the bust which, though I'cant be sure by any means, does have the softness of style from the reigns of either Constans or Constantius II. The over strike is a mystery, as the second impression has mixed with some of the original to give a completely unique look.


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: sugar on January 17, 2012, 07:31:47 PM
OK well firstly the best method to id Roman coins from the 4th century is by the reverse, unfortunately we don't have that luxury. So we are left with just part of the bust which, though I'cant be sure by any means, does have the softness of style from the reigns of either Constans or Constantius II. The over strike is a mystery, as the second impression has mixed with some of the original to give a completely unique look.
 

 thanks for your time and explanation i have no idea why i am seeing what i am seeing on one side i see an old man with a beard like santa claus but i have likened him to the portraits of zeus as the nearest match on the other side near the top i see a face of someone like aphrodite quite a haunting image do you think i ought to get myself booked in at a clinic for some treatment lol  link http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDodcozRVPrXYAJutNBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTA3cnMybzJvBHNsawNpbWc-?back=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.images.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dzeus%2Bcoins%26fr%3Dyfp-t-702%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D16&w=200&h=300&imgurl=www.artsology.com%2Fgfx%2Fzeus%2Fzeus_greek_coin.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.artsology.com%2Fzeus.php&size=23.3+KB&name=Zeus+on+a+Greek+coin&p=zeus+coins&oid=5cf5958dd2eacecbcf9381571914ad9d&fr2=piv-web&fr=yfp-t-702&tt=Zeus%2Bon%2Ba%2BGreek%2Bcoin&b=0&ni=84&no=16&tab=organic&ts=&sigr=1112at7c3&sigb=1374dkre9&sigi=11e1b0gat&.crumb=9EsptsnJeek (http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDodcozRVPrXYAJutNBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTA3cnMybzJvBHNsawNpbWc-?back=http%3A%2F%2Fuk.images.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dzeus%2Bcoins%26fr%3Dyfp-t-702%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D16&w=200&h=300&imgurl=www.artsology.com%2Fgfx%2Fzeus%2Fzeus_greek_coin.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.artsology.com%2Fzeus.php&size=23.3+KB&name=Zeus+on+a+Greek+coin&p=zeus+coins&oid=5cf5958dd2eacecbcf9381571914ad9d&fr2=piv-web&fr=yfp-t-702&tt=Zeus%2Bon%2Ba%2BGreek%2Bcoin&b=0&ni=84&no=16&tab=organic&ts=&sigr=1112at7c3&sigb=1374dkre9&sigi=11e1b0gat&.crumb=9EsptsnJeek)



Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: Zeus (Joel) on January 17, 2012, 07:35:52 PM
and when did i get put on a coin ? LOL  ;D


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: jamiepearce on January 18, 2012, 09:59:10 PM
lol sugar ye , better pics would be a start im intrigued now

Thanks guys i will try and put on some bigger pictures :)


Title: Re: Need ID for unusal Roman Coin... one for the experts ..
Post by: jamiepearce on January 22, 2012, 06:53:11 PM
lol sugar ye , better pics would be a start im intrigued now



   Hi guys hope these pics are a bit clearer?Thanks for looking further in to this coins history :)


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