DetectingWales.com

JULIA DOMNA 2ND WIFE OF SEPTIMUS SEVERUS AD 193-211

OBVERSE: IVLIAPIA FELIX AVG,DRAPED BUST RIGHT

REVERSE: VESTA,VESTA ENTHRONED, HOLDING SIMPULUM & SCEPTRE

FIRST SILVER DENARIUS I HAVE FOUND

BIG THANKS TO ALL THOSE WHO ARRANGE THESE RALLIES SO FINDS LIKE THIS CAN BE FOUND

THANKS AGAIN

WAYNE (WAYNO)

UNFORTUNATELY JUST BEEN INFORMED IT MAY BE A ANTONINANUS OR A FORGERY DENARIUS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DIPPED IN SILVER. VERDICT STILL OUT

NEVER MIND STILL HAPPY WITH IT

Wayno, a lovely find and you are spot on with the inscription, but I was going on Neil saying it was a Denarius and presumed that's what it was, now looking at the colour of the coin (brown staining) and if that is accurate, then I have to tell you it looks like a antoninianus or a contemporary forgery of a denarius that would of been silver dipped.

Lovely coin, Wayno. Great condition. Will look stunning when cleaned. 8)

Val

Well done Wayne, it's a gem!

Hi Wayne,

I think that is a fantastic looking coin you have found there, well done!! I can't wait for the day to find myself a Roman Silver Coin!! You ask why I say silver, because I am happy to bet that this is without question silver, just naturally toned, and I wouldn't clean it, it looks fantastic as it is. It's detailing looks too good in my opinion to be a contemporary forgery!! I would without a doubt say it is the following:

Julia Domna AR denarius. IVLIA PIA FELIX AVG, draped bust right / VESTA, Vesta seated left, holding simpulum and scepter. RIC 391, RSC 226. Sear Roman Coins & their Values (RCV 2000 Edition) #7109!! Julia Domna was the wife of Septimius Severus.

Cheers,
Jon

Nice coin, well done. This version of the coin would have been made in about 211 when Caracalla, Julia Domna's son was emperor. Thats why the inscription on the obverse is Julia Pia, beloved of Augustus, rather that Julia Domna Augusta which would have been on the coins when her husband Septimus Severus was emperor. He died in York.

The coins of this time had been debased to less than 50% silver because Septimus Severus had almost bankrupted the empire waging wars and paying the legions and there was rampant inflation. The fact that the coin you have is not silvery is because the silver content just isnt there. I think they debased the silver with copper but I stand to be corrected.

Eric

Thats a cracking coin Wayno, well done m8  ;)

Eric even with the 50/50 silver split from this period the coin would in my experience, still show signs of it's silver content.
I think the red staining is a result of the zinc content, meaning this coin started off as a "brass" issue. Brass was the favoured copper alloy used in Rome for the higher base coins as it resembled gold when new. the lower denominations were of bronze.
I am wrong in saying it could be a antoninianus, as this started around this time but was originally in silver.
I think the safest way to describe it is by it's numismatic classification of "AE3" (though even this clasification is wrong due to it's issue date) :-[.
It is worth noting that denarii of Julia Domna are quite common, however copper alloy coins depicting her, are rare and even more so in good condition. So this coin is probably worth a lot more than a silver issue.

The accurate ID'ing of Roman coins into their denominations is a minefield as they changed so much through the 370 years of the occupation, and many Roman coin types have no known ancient name, many being named in more recent times and grouped into types then sub-types depending on size. If anyone would like to try and get  to grips with the denominations then have a look at this website.
http://dougsmith.ancients.info/denom.html (http://dougsmith.ancients.info/denom.html)

Do you think it would be worth his while getting this positively id by the meuseum??

Personally I would say a coin expert/dealer would be the best person to ID it, as the FLO's tend to just call it a "bronze of" or Nummus, which by the way is a modern cop out as it just means "Coin".

welldone wayno boy..lovely roman coin butty. so pleased for you mate.a great find yet again on a great ralley.again welldone fella.
ray....

Here's my view, for what it's worth.

Without doubt, the type of this coin is a Julia Domna denarius, with Vesta reverse issued under Caracalla, c. 211-217.

As Geoff rightly stated, it cannot be an antoninianus, as these did not exist with this type, although antoniniani did start to be minted in this period (214 AD).

The RIC reference number for this coin is 391, and the Cohen reference is 226, but Cohen (in Description historique des monnaies frappées sous l'Empire Romain, volume IV, page 124 [Paris, 1884]) also mentions what he called in French a "petit bronze" with the same design. The RIC interpretation of this is a "base denarius".

So the ID of this coin, to me, is either:

1. A genuine denarius, which is toned and rust-stained.

2. A "base denarius", if such a thing exists.

3. A contemporary base-metal forgery.


I did see the coin on the day, and examined it with a glass. To me it did not appear to be a forgery, although it was very dark in colour.

As Geoff said also, this denarius of Julia Domna is fairly common, so if it is a forgery or a base denarius, then is considerably scarcer, particularly in this condition.

Needs to be seen by an expert for an opinion, for example Edward Besly at the National Museum in Cardiff.

Oh, and whatever it is, I wouldn't attempt any cleaning.

well done lovely coin  ;D ;D ;D

Hi Wayne,

A suggestion was made to get somebody from a museum to have a look at it, I would absolutely recommend Sam Moorhead to take a look, he is one of the UK's top experts in Roman Coinage, and he attends nearly every Rally where there is going to be high numbers of Roman Coins turning up, he knows pretty much every book at the back of his hand!! Email him some clearer pics with a ruler for size!!

smoorhead@thebritishmuseum.ac.uk

Cheers,
Jon

I'm no Roman coin expert, in fact, after 10 years detecting I'm still to find my first denari, but to me this coin looks genuine, ie, silver, as I have found a few silver coins that have the exact same rust colour staining/patina on them, including a King John penny. In fact, if you look closely, you can see some of the silver on the high parts of the obverse. 

I seriously think the best way to end this speculation is to just wet the coin and wrap it in silver foil for 30 secs, if it's silver with that amount of oxide then it will smell strongly of eggs, if not then it will have no effect whatsoever. job done.

get some
 nitric acid on it!!! ;D

Just try not to breathe whilst doing so! :o

Wayno thats a cracking coin and  wish more to come , a bientot my friend .

Napoleon

 ;Dnice one wayno.getting my etrac tomorrow ,might have to hit you up for some tips bud.seems a bit daunting bud :'(

Looks rust stained to me. Lovely find, well done. :)

Thats a lovely coin! Ive absolutely no doubt that it is silver. Some of you may remember the hoard of denarii i found a couple of years back. many of the coins in the hoard had the same dark staining as yours and i had my doubts wether many of them were contempory forgeries or silver washed, one of them in particular i would have bet my mortgage that it was a bronze core from a silver washed forgery ( see before & after pic bottom), but after cleaning they all turned out to be genuine denarii.

iv'e had a couple of republicans the same colour that i didn't think were  silver at first, but they were made from base metals & silver,

Hello all

thanks for all the interest and advise on my coin. Lots of good info. I have sent pics to the british museum as suggested but he is away until 9 nov.

I John F how did you clean that coin.

and another question for you all should i attept to clean it

thanks again

Wayne

Wayno, as I said before just wet the coin and fold some cooking foil around it tightly leave it for 30 secs, unfold the foil and if you can smell rotten eggs then its silver and you will see some silver starting to show through. If you can't smell anything then it's a copper alloy.



Just copied from another forum, Thanks jkxz

Here's one that you probably heard some old git tell you at the local club ... And thought , silly old git !!! LooOOL   Me too - Simply the aluminum kitchen foil & spit technique ... wet the coin well with saliva ... yuck !!! then place into a small piece of foil & enclose it - like a coin sandwich ... firmly rub with thumb & finger evenly on both surfaces .... The coin should start to heat up !! & smell of rotten eggs if its silver !!!   After 30 seconds or so its time to have a look. Wipe well with soft tissue, then add some sunflower cooking oil to the coin ... now rub very gently between finger & thumb - looking all the time to make sure raised points do not get over clean, now wipe clean the coin again with soft tissue - Job done !!!  
  

NO EFFECT SO THAT MEANS IT NOT SILVER THEN ?

SO NEXT QUESTION IS THEN IS IT A FORGE

THANKS

WAYNE

Not necessarily wayno, as I said before bronzes depicting her portrait are quite rare but as it is exactly the same as a Denarius and would be easy to cover in silver (dip) and turn in to a denarius so I would suspect thats what it is. However that doesn't or needn't detract from it's value.
It's still nearly 2000 years old and has a far more interesting story behind it.

Wayne - see my previous post for the three possibilities.

The foil test may not be conclusive if the iron staining prevents the foil coming into contact with any silver sulphide on the surface of the coin.

I cant get over the condition of it  if it is a copper alloy base or bronze to be in the earth for 1000 year+ and to come up in ths condition.

look at all the early george pennies there is berely nothing on them.

so what ever it is i am very pleased with it

thanks again

wayne

I began cleaning them with a 50/50 mix of olive oil and lemon juice but found that after a few minutes all the olive oil was sitting on top of the lemon juice so i ended up just using pure lemon juice, taking the coins out every few hours and giving them a gentle rub with a cotton bud dipped in the lemon juice. Some of the coins came clean after an overnight soak, whereas others too a few days to clean.
I know that many will reel at the thought of leaving a coin soaking in lemon jiuce, but a lot of the coins were heavily encrusted and this was the only way to get them clean.
I know that a collector would probably frown at this but as i have no intention to sell them then to me leaving them encrusted wasnt ideal. Heres a few more pics.

That was a lovely find John, I remember seeing it in the mags, didn't you find them with the XT70 if I remember right?

arrrr  nice coins, oh yes, i have heard of the lemon juice for that encrustation ,  it brought them up great

My coin after a bit of cleaning

WWWOOWW WELLDONE WAYNO LOVELY DENARIUS MUCKER..

i found a roman denari a while ago that i thought might be a forgery and when i got the report back from cardiff museum it was a genuine denari and not a copy and that had staining on it as well heres a pic.

Should clean up nice.  :)