DetectingWales.com

Had a great time at the Cotswold Rally over the weekend, weather was good and a few fantastic finds came up, which I am pleased to say was made by my club members, I think we mopped up. ;D
 
Field 26 was the place to be, as the Archie’s had already cordoned off an area in which we couldn’t detect, so we hit the rest of the field.
Over 100 bronze Roman came up from various parts of the field, at least 20 Roman brooches, Celtic Woad grinder, and a Dobunni Silver unit which I found between two holes that had been dug by someone else.
My mate Bob went for the largest brooch, which I thought was just silvered but the F.L.O thought other wise and grabbed it as Treasure. >:(

Nice finds Steve.

wow what an amazing location, its surprising that these undetected places can still turn up these days !

. I love your coin what a brilliant find ;).

Love the brooch, wish i had gone now :-[

Herbie

Herbie it was bloody hard work today,most of the good stuff was found yesterday

It was like getting to the party late

This is all i managed today

I found around 6 Roman grots

2 x bronze finger rings

1 cut half Henry 111 penny

Considering the field was done to death on the Saturday Shaun, you did well  8)

nice finds , good day..... 8)

Lovin the condition of Bob's finds esp the brooch.  :o Hope he gets it back.

Great finds and report Steve.

I hope your friend Bob was happy that the FLO grabbed the brooch, because they have no right to do this.

Under the Treasure Act, you have 14 days to report your find to the Coroner, so anyone finding a Treasure item is perfectly entitled to take it away, get it photographed, valued, etc before declaring it.

I will ring him tomorrow, to see what went on, I still think the brooch is silvered, so does not fall into Treasure.

I was at the rally Sunday photographing for the FLO, among the items was the large brooch. Just before I left a young lad came over to Kurt and asked to look at it, he then told Kurt that previous ones had been identified as 'silvered' rather than 'Silver'. He then suggested it would be better to look through a magnifying glass to see if there was any sign of 'green'
corrosion as that would indicate a copper/bronze base material. The sign for this is usually found on one or both of the edges at the top of the brooch where the pin would have been located. After a look Kurt thought he could see evidence of it and stated that the lad may well be right.

I hope Bob got the brooch back, as I thought it was silvered as well, but I haven't been able to make contact with him since, so I'm still in the dark.

Well I was there,and it was obvious to everyone with an ounce of common sense that the brooch was silvered


How an experienced FLO ?  could think it was solid silver is beyond me  ???


It is very unlikely to fall under the treasure act either

any object other than a coin provided that at least 10 per cent by weight of

metal is precious metal (that is, gold or silver) and that it is at least 300 years old when found

 

wow steve your a lucky man having nice ground to detect on like that  :o niiiiiiiiiiice

Hi,
I have just logged on to this site to answer some of the questions raised.

You are absolutely right, you have to report treasure to the coroner or their representatives within 14 days from the point you realise that it is treasure.  I did tell the finder that I would not take it away, however he was most adamant that I took it saying that because I was there, he’d rather I took it with me.  

Roman brooches were not silvered, but tinned.  Silver was used on copper alloy brooches but this is mainly restricted to wire inlays and foils. However, please remember that an artefact more than 300 years old, which has more than 10% gold or sliver, is still treasure.  The material of the brooch is silver, this is clearly visible on the break of the pin, or the broken catch plate where a cross section of the metal is easily seen.  The copper corrosion on the head plate at the top, this is where impurities in the metal have leach to the surface.  This is a process occasionally seen on silver radiates where the copper in the metal corrodes and leaches to the surface and deposited as a green layer, in some case that I have witnessed, obscuring the silver colour of the coin altogether.  

I hope this helps.

Thanks for that information Kurt, very interesting, always learning! At the last but one rally, Laura gave us a really interesting insight into flints and what to look for to distinguish between worked and non-worked.

By the way , welcome to the site and feel free do drop in to advise, any time.

Thank you Kurt, for the positive input. All the FLO's do excellent work. Long may the funding continue.

Look forward to seeing you again at a DW rally.

Cheers

Kurt

How do they measure the silver on an item to work out whether it makes up 10% of the weight. Because as far as I can see, a plated item could never make up 10% as it would only be several microns thick, and gold leaf is extreamly thin, if it were gold plated, still not treasure!

Interesting point Shaun, now Kurt is the 10% silver or gold, decided by the coverage of the item or by the weight, as the Treasure Act fail to mention this, and this makes just a tincy bit of difference, to the outcome ???

The Treasure law states clearly

1 (a)

(i)is not a coin but has metallic content of which at least 10 per cent by weight is precious metal;

So its by weight not area of coverage.  So if you have a 50 gramme brooch and 5 grams of it is silver, then thats Treasure Trove. But as Kurt said the brooches are not normally silver plated.

I can not see how any Roman brooches or artifacts that have been silvered, could possibly be classed as treasure


The weight of the silvered content could not make 10% in most cases


So how does the treasure act measure the silvered,or  gold glided on an item to work out whether it makes up 10% by weight

Haven't you read Kurts post at the bottom of page 1?

On the P.A.S data base there appears to be a silver plated brooch, ....or do they mean tinned?

http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/72233 (http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/72233)

Kurt states that  ‘’Roman brooches were not silvered, but tinned’’and silver was only found on wire inlays and foils but this P.A.S report clearly states ‘’There are only remains of silver plating on the very outside edge of the decorated face as well as partly continuing round to the back of the brooch’’

Umm….Very confusing, for the amateur detectorist ???

They can use surface area to work that out, silver has a known weight as will the alloy underneath, simple maths will give the % by weight.

I think what Kurt is saying in his reply, is that Roman brooches are not silvered as a rule, however as with everything, there will be locally made or bespoke brooches that don't follow the trend, confusing for us armatures yes, maybe it is. But if we're unsure, then we do have the FLO system to fall back on for advice in these situations.  If in doubt, show the FLO  :)

If there using the surface area to work out the weight of the silvered content its still confusing


What if the silvered item is worn in several places


Yes Geoff I did read  Kurts post on the first page he is quoting the treasure act


An item that is 300 years old, which has more than 10% gold or sliver, is still treasure


I think we all know that or we should, been responsible detectors users


The treasure process regarding gold gilding and silvered items is confusing


I would still like an answer from Kurt on how they officially work out the precious metal weight on these type of items

Ok here we have an example

This is a Tudor 'Trefoil Filigree' Hooked Clasp Mount

Circa 16th Century A.D

Most of the silver or gold gilt is present

Question is this a treasure item

Does it contain 10% silver or gold gilt by weight i do not think so myself

What did your FLO say ? Surely that's the person to ask.

Don't worry shaun, that's not treasure, here is my one recorded in 1995 at the Corinium museum, returned  with a letter saying it was 19th century, ah well,  you learn something every day, I thought they were Tudor silver clothes fasteners :D

I don't need to ask my FLO

This example was found by me over 20 years ago,before the new treasure process came in to effect

I  know what it is, and I guess there is no 10% gold gilding by weight

It would simply be returned if it went for treasure wasting tax payers money

And as Steve said if the Corinium museum, consider them 19th century thats good enouth for me 


  

Well i for one, do hope that the object is handed in for recording. Simply because it adds to the vast database of knowledge.

Whilst i appreciate the PAS scheme is voluntary, if our hobby is to have any credibility at all, then recording all finds is incumbent on participants.

In my opinion, failure to record just plays into the hands of those who wish to have the hobby stopped.

Well put Alan. Whilst I was  there on  Sunday I was made aware of two known night hawkers. When asked if they were recording anything the reply was a firm NO although they admitted they had found 'stuff'. The PAS database not only records our past, but is also available for any research etc. It would be a sorry day if metal detecting were to be eventually curtailed through the lack of recording etc. Why feed the monkey when he can play withhis own nuts.

Hi Anthony, i can concur that the research aspect is extremely important. I have, on several occasions, been asked to return a find for further examination along with others from across the country. The PAS scheme is unique and is regarded as a very important research tool, by many.

As an individual detectorist who, along with many others, contributes to the scheme, i am only to pleased to be able to have something recorded which can only further our academic knowledge and understanding.

I am all for recording finds to my local Flo although half the items she has not got a clue what they are  ???

What qualifications do you need for the job, and is the money good, as I will apply for a job myself

I have a CSE 2 in archaeology,i also have a copy of spinks

I just think the treasure act concerning plated and glided items needs scrapping

Most gilded items are returned to the finders after an inquest and its a waste of tax payers money


Who was these nighthawks then do you care to name them for the good of the hobby

There are FLO vacancies, feel free to apply. As for naming and shaming ... sorry, that won;t be allowed on this website. There are other more formal channels available to deal with illegal activities.

I think all nighthawks should be named and shamed

Providing people have the evidence of such illegal activity, then the correct process is for them to report such persons to the police who can investigate the matter accordingly.

There have been at least 2 high profile prosecutions of nighthawkers this year [with more to come before the year end is out]. With both cases receiving press coverage and along with that comes the naming and shaming.

I'm really sorry but at the moment I cannot name the nighthawks until I have permission from the person who told me. It is difficult for me to name my informant as he is holds an important position and I would not wish to endanger his standing. I will of course ask him. Sorry I can't help

NEVER trust 2nd hand information, it's very dangerous.

Val

The problem with naming and shaming nighthawkers, is the word slander and libel, I think if you have positive information and evidence you should release it. Then pass the information over to the police.

Bearing in mind that if you plaster their names all over the internet, then a prosecution can become nigh on impossible as finding unadulterated and non biassed evidence wont be possible.

anthonyjay do you detect your self ?

I am sure you were taking photos for Kurt at the rally

I found stuff at the rally and I did not record any of it,I was to busy detecting, and then at the end of the day I wanted to get home and not be held up.

in fact everything I found is on this thread, what I found was nothing exciting or of nation importance


And yes 2nd hand information, is very dangerous and can be libellous,so be very careful who your accusing

I do detect when I'm able and yes I was photographing for Kurt on the Sunday. I'm still processing the pics for him and hope to have them delivered this week. I'm aware of slander etc and I would not divulge the names but if I were at a rally and with friends I would be prepared to point them out. I did ask why nothing had been done about them but was told 'It's catching them at it which is difficult'. Where he aquired his info I do not know but I do trust him, that is all I can say. Hope that helps. PS: I was talking to several friends I had not seen for some years and it could have been one of them who told me. If I see any of you at the next dig please feel free to ask me more.

So how does the treasure act measure the silvered,or  gold glided on an item to work out whether it makes up 10% by weight

still waiting for an answer from Kurt  ???

Try emailing him or your local FLO direct if you are that desperate for an answer. Then when you have a definitive comment, post it up.

Not that desperate,but you would thought he would have replied by now  ::)

He is a member on here so i am happy to wait for an answer

There are lots of members of the forum, some of whom only post one a year. Personally, if you are seeking an answer to the question, then email your local expert/FLO.