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You don't need to be in this hobby for too long before you start to hear the horror stories of nighthawks and the damage they cause not only to scheduled sites but to the hobby itself as in my view if there is a danger of the hobby being banned in the UK then it comes from within our own ranks.
I suspect that many like myself cringe every few years when the inevitable "Nighthawk" story is wheeled out and then adopted by certain quarters to demonstrate the danger posed by metal detecting in general and I'm slightly embarrassed to say that after nearly 40 years of reading these cases they have become a little like "water off a ducks back" as they always seem to be in locations miles away so a "nothing to do with me" attitude has taken hold and I believe many others have the same view............
Today though the subject has been brought to my doorstep with a collaboration between Bristol Uni and the BBC, tonight's "Inside West" program showing footage from protected sites in Gloucestershire (OK big doorstep lol) captured at night and showing nighthawks at work.
I'm not sure if they name names or even manage to identify the culprits but I'm sure that myself or other member may have some ideas on who they are after seeing the footage.
Cringe time is 19:30^h tonight BBC1 but if you miss it or can't get BBC West then you can view it after transmission on the BBC iPlayer.

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2015/october/heritage-crime-uncovered.html (http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2015/october/heritage-crime-uncovered.html)

LOL Jerry beat me to it :D

It'll certainly be worth a watch.

It would be nice for some follow-up with both the crims and maybe what responsibly detectorists are like (aside from the 'Detectorists' Sitcom).

If they are filming night hawkers surely they call the police as they do so, to catch them.

Otherwise its just sensational telly ! ::)

As it says on the Bristol Uni link "The investigation placed motion-sensor infra-red cameras" so nobody about to call the police....

That's shocking chef really shocking I too think the hobby will be outlawed soon due to greedy people.

Personally, the whole concept of metal detecting being banned would be a complete disaster,as it would make no difference to the "rogue scum" who perpetrate such foul doings.
Perhaps it is time for the law to change and that strict licencing and control  of detectors brought in,alas I know it would be impossible for such a scheme to work!!!however,perhaps those of us who know of such persons perpetrating these crimes,or even as much as to have a suspicion of persons committing such acts should give their names to the rightful authorities,and that they come down with a custodial sentence should they be found guilty.
Well its either that or we lose our much loved hobby of metal detecting.
Well,it's OUR hobby,and its up to US to help stamp out this "night hawking" scourge.

I think its worth pointing out that these are people going equipped with metal detectors to engage in an  illegal activity.

Which is totally different from those who participate in the hobby, through legitimate arrangements with landowners.

There is a precedent of legal action being taken against those who pursue the illegal route

http://www.antiquestradegazette.com/news/2013/jan/12/metal-detecting-prosecution-hailed-as-a-landmark-case/ (http://www.antiquestradegazette.com/news/2013/jan/12/metal-detecting-prosecution-hailed-as-a-landmark-case/)

I'm afraid Alan that nighthawks are only your average detectorist with permission by day, thankfully as the above link says new sentencing rules are now in place, the sentences in the case you posted were in my view at best pathetic, which may help, but I doubt it :'(

That was a disappointment I didn't recognise any of them >:(

Thank God the FLO was there to stick up for us.

Having just watched the programme someone must know who they are with those pictures, if anyone does know them then do our hobby a favour and inform the police, there must be detectorists out there who knows someone who is night hawking, now is the time to let people know who they are so we can protect our great hobby before it's too late. and well done to Kurt Adams our local Flo.
Geoff

Well said Geoff, There was a clue there, didn't someone mention the name "Vlad"

Can someone post the iplayer link please, as and when it appears

Cheers

It will probably take about an hour or so before this new episode is on there ;)
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06h881h/inside-out-west-12102015 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06h881h/inside-out-west-12102015)

So any ideas anyone?

"Dylan "    ;D ;D ;D

is that Rod on the right hand side :o ;D

I watched this inside out tonight i think this is going to end in a detecting ban in the uk at some point.the images posted of 3 men nighthawking will be caught soon and they are going to have servere finds or prison .they must be bricking it .

Hopefully they are mate. Ken I can prove it wasn't me, I was on Crimewatch ::)

I fink I know 2 of dem. One one left is Lofty and one one right is Shorty ;D

It's the 3 stoodges lol

Probably foreigners (Vlad). What is the point of banning the hobby, surely that would push many legit detectorists into the same bracket hence increasing the problem. Personally I just can't see a ban, some method of control yes a total ban no. What they going to do, have a day for all detectorists to hand in their thousands of pounds worth of detecting kit.

Not so sure about foreign...why are they speaking in English? and "He was quick, weren't he" sounds pretty West Country to me.
I agree that a ban from just yet another nighthawking case is unlikely and would need a much higher profile case but make no mistake I saw the ban imposed in Ireland following illegal detecting and I heard all the bravado beforehand regarding people saying "it won't stop me detecting" well inside 12 months the hobby was essentially dead, yes it has seen a flourishing in the last few years but only technically on beaches inland and even in your own garden it's still an arrestable offence.
Like yourself I and many others have for many years wanted some kind of control, mainly in the way of training and licencing the training need only cover the basics but the licence would only be issued after it and would be an add on to the PAS and could be tied in with DEFRA but as the future of PAS is somewhat in the balance I can't see it happening any time soon :-\

We have all met dodgy characters at rallies ,who you know are out hawking at night on nearby farms..But the bulk of detectorists are still law abiding citzens...Its everbodies fault that we having this problem..Putting your head above water can lead to conflict..But these characters need prosecuting and detectors confiscated....rob

I agree with Geoff, if we all had to be registered with a proper licence complete with photo so that  if you were approached and couldn't produce it you could be arrested. this would at least allow the police to know who you were from your licence and take steps accordingly. I for one would be more than willing to pay a few pounds for a detecting licence and at present always carry my NCMD card with me which also has a photo of me on it.

It wouldn't even take a Government imposed ban to put the brakes on our hobby, [ inland ] all it would take is Farmers getting together and refusing us permission. Therefore people like this MUST be stopped. Surely someone must recognise them ?

If memory serves, there used to be a metal detecting licence 30-odd years ago which was just a piece of paper. The big problem with this type of regulation is - who regulates it? The government is fond of making unenforceable laws - no phones in cars, no smoking in cars, even the seatbelt laws . . .

As I said (and meant it) our local police station has been closed down and sold to a housing development company so if anything kicks off locally they have to send the bobbies from 20-odd miles away so I can't imagine them even being interested it crawling around fields at night.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's not more regulation. There used to be a drugs problem near Chester years ago that the police couldn't do anything about. Then one night the drugs courier met with an unfortunate accident involving baseball bats, after which the problem ceased to be.

Dunno . . .

The laws covering rape and murder are unenforceable but I don't see that as a reason to do away with them and I wish you had told the Somerset Constabulary that the seat belt law was unenforceable before they fined me £200  ;D Yes the old "Pipe finders licence" and I remember rushing to the post office in 1977 clutching my 50p (I think) and felt quite important lol.
I don't see any disadvantages of licencing as it can only make the police's job easier it doesn't mean that they have to check every time they see a detectorist but if there is a suspicion then it gives them an extra weapon in their armoury.

The laws on rape and murder certainly are enforceable - as are all laws if they can catch the evil-doer at it. I do a lot of walking around here and it seems like every third car has the driver on the phone but there's nobody to do anything about it - so it's effectively unenforceable. Sorry about your fine - you must have been very unlucky!

The big problem with licencing is that people can choose to ignore the laws - look how many unlicenced drivers there are. As with guns, the people who have the licences aren't usually the ones causing the problems - that would be the criminal types - but it's the licenced ones who are getting punished for somebody elses' crimes.

I really can't see how we would be punished exactly but yes I understand how those who do it illegally will always do so, "hung for a sheep as for a lamb" springs to mind, but this would offer some traceability and coupled with education would help eradicate some of the ignorance especially of newcomers but sadly also in long time hobbyists,
The hoard of gold Roman coins from three years ago in St Albans is a case in point and although he didn't have permission he still got his 50% but he did do the right thing and contacted somebody but with training he would have got it all right. I would hate to think of exactly how many hoards and historically valuable artefacts are found each year and nothing is ever known about them :(
The main problem is the media coverage around hoards and the simplicity of starting the hobby, after each high profile hoard there is a spike in detector sales so retailers and manufactures aren't interested in control, FID are a private company who make their money from selling insurance so more the merrier and NCMD are a holiday and retirement fund for the committee members so ditto plus they are stuck in a 1980's "behind the barricades) mindset. (They are now sponsored by Minelab...how the hell does that work?)
Too be honest I don't know what the answer is but I do know that after 40 odd years the cry of "the irresponsible few" is wearing a little thin when they are turning out to be part of the responsible majority during the day and unless we ourselves start policing our own then the authorities will do it for us.

Totally agree with you Geoff, it's down to us.
Geoff

Licensing by government would finish this hobby. Quotas,,Red tape,,Supervision,No  new tech.......as manufactors going bust as demand ***********************************************drops

I don't think there are many manufacturers who rely entirely on the meagre numbers in the UK and I can't see how you could have a quota system "Oh damn another gold hammered I'll have to throw it back" lol, there hasn't been any "new" tech since the mid 70's unless you count BBS if so 1992, red tape bring it on it's all part of natural selection :D

Go with Geoff 100%+......If you know em,DOB EM IN...!!!!!!!regardless.!!!!!

                      Read and reread the thread several times and am beginning to wonder if licensing of detectorists is going to be the only way that we can head off the banning of metal detecting. I am repeatedly amazed by the statements made by some people, concerning the finding of valuables. Finders keepers, I have a friend who can melt a hoard down for me, shouldn't dig through the hardpack...take no notice of that; to name but a few.

                    I recently chatted with a ten year old and showed him some photographs of my finds and upon showing him the back half of a silver cigarette case that may have belong to a WWII fighter pilot; his first response was........how much can you get for that? I tried explaining that one should try and get the object back to the family if possible, but I think that he found that disappointing. I can probably point the youngster in the right direction, but that will be the best that I can do.  :(

All new detectors to be fitted with a tamper proof tracking device that is listed to an owner and is linked via sattelite to a tracking station. Detector has an ID number that matches a licence number held by the registered owner. Tracking station has all important sites listed and automatically records when information is sent in that a detector is being used there. Next thing that happens is a knock on the door and you're nicked!

Never happen, but wonder if it would work?

The technology is already built into most mobile phones.

Yes, of course it could work - but somebody would have to set up a database of off-limits sites. And what would it cost to retro-fit it to every metal detector and then monitor their use . . . ?

Don't think retro fitting would be viable, would probably have to be incorporated into new designs, which would probably increase the price, that's if the makers could be bothered to go to the hassle of fitting them to detectors just for our market.

So now we all have to buy new detectors . . .  ??? ::)

I can't see it happening in reality. If the problem was that big they'd just ban it completely.

Shhh . . . Don't give them ideas . . .  ;)

ok, I won't say anything if you don't.  ;D

 ;D ;D ;D my lips are sealed!

Bit harsh on NCMD Geoff...We are having a change in the old Treasure Trove law in I.O.M and have nothing we but admiration personally for professional touch in their approach to our museum and our top civil servants.Get your head out of the sand..I was talking to some of NCMD top brass at Chester town hall and they have a heavy workload and they have 21st century approach to their work...But they need fresh blood like any committee..Stop sniping if your not willing to join the fight against these thiefs with detectors.I had snipers telling me that i and rest of charitable committee were useless and they no where to be seen when the committee folded through ill health..Support the NCMD NOT KICK THEM...WE NEED THEM...PUT AWAY THE PETTY GRIEVANCES GEOFF....................ROB

I totally disagree Rob sorry they are the ones with their head in the sand or should I say the past, I see nothing 21st century about anything they do, the website is so amateur and out of date it doesn't exactly say "We are the governing body" I don't have any grievance with NCMD petty or otherwise and I'm the first to celebrate what they did for us during the STOP campaign but that was then and was their raison d'etre and since they have failed to breath professionalism in to the hobby, when the nighthawk report was published a few years ago did they take the moral high ground and condemn the nighthawks as something we as a hobby needed to weed out? no after a very long silence they defended the hobby and accused archaeologists of giving a biased view. They won't even tell people how many members they have...why? well if they did they may have to explain what has happened to the hundreds of thousands of pounds they have taken in membership over the last 30 years......fresh blood? possibly but a new broom? definitely.

As with everything were money is involved it always seems to to bring out the worst in people. Some might not like to admit it but metal detecting is a very clicky hobby and the whole hobby needs a clean up. Starting from the purchase we seem to be getting ripped off by the dealers over charging for detectors etc, then price matching other dealers price which they supply too ,so why not charge us the cheap rate in the first place. Also then bulking out of any warranty claim if they get away with it. Some detectorists think they own the land that they gain permission on using heavy handed approaches to stop others detecting on it even after they have sort permission, it is the farmer who owns the land and up to him who he grants permission to , this has happened to me by a forum member of this website  ??? I do attend rallies at different parts of the Uk and have bore witness when the organiser turn a blind eye when treasure is un earthed because the detectorist was one of the click. When you come to see the write up at the end of the day on the internet what is reported is never a true account of what is actually found and makes you think why? the simple answer is money. If nothing is found of interest thats how it should be reported on. They way finds are sent way and recorded, why does it takes so long? the simple answer to this is the system is not fit for purpose and the employees of this do not seem to have a interest in the job and get there job from the old boys network. in the first place. I am lucky enough to have my own permissions and be in a club were what you see is what you get which is refreshing change  from the norm . Some  people are not so lucky , that is not a excuse to go night hawking but maybe a reason why some do, which not for a instant do i agree with. But there maybe a number of reasons why they do. I think the whole hobby needs a kick up the AR@@ and we all need to look at the way the hobby is run and look at the way we all act within it . So as for  the "saying people in glass houses should not throw stones" because not everyone in it is white than white and are quick to criticize other who are up to no good.
Just my opinion for what it's worth ???

The bigest problem when you bring in rules as a result of the iresponsible few, its only effects those responsible detectorists. The night or day hawkers do not stop.

What should happen and it does not, that when hawkers are found out there should be tougher penalties, shamed.  If a detectorist finds a hoard on land without permission he shouldnt be rewarded.

Geoff I don't mind constructive criticism and I stand by your right to say what you think..Its a free society and I agree to differ with you..I love this forum ,but no matter how big it gets ,it will not influence government to take action on nighawkwers..Only the governing body can do that and that can be done by a push from the federations..My suggestion  is to take photographs of car registrations near looted sites and handed over to the police..The next time those cars are seen in the countryside the police can pull them over for a search..That is constructive and the whole country can get involved 8)

Hi Rob again in theory all you say is for the good of metal detecting.
BUT!!! With the ever cutting back on our police force's,to what is now becoming mere shadow of its former self and with the closure of most of our outlying police stations,personally, they wouldn't give toss to someone reporting a car tucked into a country lane layby.
They just ain't got those sort of resources any more,as very unfortunately, those days are long gone.

What you say is so true.

Just very recently 3 people rang the police when a car full of youngsters left the road and went up a pedestrian path knocking a 3 foot steel post out of the ground..

It then hit a garden stone wall cracking it open after its stood everything for 100 years.

Luckily the youngsters were not injured and they man handled the severely damaged car back on the main road, even though the traffic was tailed back to the motorway.

No police bothered to turn up to the accident.

What chance is there of them attending a night hawking call. >:(  Jerry.

The police will now only attend a Road Traffic Accident or Collision if somebody is injured

Your missing the point ,its not catching them on site ,its if the registrations are being flagged up at local  headquarters..The cops on night patrol pull them over and see if nightlights,picks and recent finds are in the car...Exactly the same as harecoursing ,drug dealers and burglars are caught... If only one or two are brought before the court and their detectors,car are confisticated with a big fine.Hopefully it WILL deter other criminals from ruining are hobby.. The name is Rob ...Wetland  ;D

Yes but you've missed the point Rob...there are no night patrols as such our local division has two patrol cars at night and that's to cover 450 square miles which means that they certainly aren't wasting their time driving down country lanes which brings us back to us policing it ourselves and I'm not talking about catching them in the act but many of us at times have probably had suspicions of other detectorists but very few of us ever share those suspicions because we don't see it as any of our business which in one way it's not but if you're someone who cares about the hobby in general and more importantly the history it can help to uncover then it does.
Metal detecting by its very nature is a very selfish hobby my sites, my finds I've even seen a few times where people even keep detector programs secret ??? and on the sites front for very good reason but it's our very success that inspires new blood to come in to the hobby and this influence comes with a price ticket which is to teach the right way and if that means using a big stick then so be it.

good idea rob,  something needs to be done. it needs some deterent to stop this  happening.

Sorry Rob,gotta go with Chef,we have to police it ourselves,if you have any suspicions, and can back it up,you got to dob em in.yes its horrible, BUT!! WE HAVE GOT TO STAMP IT OUT....OR !!!!!
WE LOSE OUR HOBBY,the choice is OURS !! :'(

It was DONG DING that got your name wrong Rob :D :D

                            I was once informed by a police officer that most forces have one officer who specialises in animal protection.
Spot people badger baiting, digging out foxes, or dog fighting, and he is your man to contact. Perhaps a quick call to your local Plod will provide you with a contact number for use in the future; should you ever spot illegal detecting.

                           I recently rang 101 to report a none detecting security issue and was switched to an other line after giving the information to the first operator that took my call. It wasn't an emergency, so I just sat and waited for someone to pick up the phone on the other end and was amazed how long it took for someone to pick up the phone. I had visions of them all sat around  and saying "he will hang up in a minute".  :-\

Too be honest I don't know what the answer is but I do know that after 40 odd years the cry of "the irresponsible few" is wearing a little thin when they are turning out to be part of the responsible majority during the day and unless we ourselves start policing our own then the authorities will do it for us.

[/quote]
This is free speech ,but it gets my heckles up ,when we know that majority of nighthawks are not part of our bonafide hobby
. These criminals don't want to get permission or,spend time with clubs on big empty fields..No they the prefer a Villa site and dig a trench till they find signals in the unstratifyed layers..We know they turn up at rallys to hawk the surrounding sites..But they wouldn't get out of bed to do a day time stint..How we going to police ourself ..Go back to vigilantism?

Unfortunately Rob the facts and figures tell a different story with those few who have been caught day or night hawking and subsequently prosecuted sadly being just your average detectorist with some even recording their day to day finds with PAS and so are part of the hobby granted there are probably many who aren't but they have to learn their trade somewhere using a metal detector isn't rocket science but you still need to learn it to stand a chance of success even as a nighthawk on a scheduled site....
It gets my hackles up too Rob but I want to do something about it and not stand idly by with my fingers in my ears going la la la just because it doesn't apply to me or say "it wasn't us" every time.
As I said I don't know what the answer is and feel that the "bad uns" in the current generation are a lost hope but we do have a chance to improve the knowledge and sense responsibility of those who come after us and so making sure that there is still a hobby for them to take part in.

Hi ROB,apologies for getting your name wrong .
Gnid Dong !!!   LOL!!!👍

Its all very well stating we must police the hobby ourselves. But you have to be very careful legally that detectorists who reports another is not just being malicious for want of a word. The hobby is full of odd people yes me as well lol.

The legal implications of naming people incorrectly would be a mine field. Just by leaving your car beside the road doesnt mean your night/day hawking unless a photo is taken of the person in the act on a schedule site.

During these coming winter nights for example I am ploughed under with work, the only time I might get out to detect is when its dark after 7.00pm, doesnt mean I'm night hawking or anyone else because they or me will have permission.

Licensing detectorists is ok, but that is not going to stop ilegal activity.

I've been on organised rallies all over this country and even though the boundaries are usually well marked out you always see detectorists on the other side.

Its a problem thats not going away, and while forums keep displaying their finds openly more and more people want to pick up detectors and find so called treasure.





 

 

Yep !l good points,well made !! ;)👍