Was the Battle of Agincourt really a victory for Wales?

[Neil]

By Neil Prior 25 October 2015


The Battle of Agincourt 600 years ago is one of the most famous English military successes - but should it really be remembered as a victory for Wales?

Marking a major turning point in the Hundred Years' War, the battle on 25 October 1415 was fought over the English kings' claim to the French throne.

However, legend has it that at Agincourt - like at the 1346 Battle of Crecy - Welsh longbowmen held the key to English success.

Henry V's army of around 8,000 was outnumbered by as much as five to one, yet 500 nimble-fingered Welsh archers were able to cut the heavily-armoured French knights to ribbons after cornering them in a narrow clearing.

Most of them came from Monmouthshire, the birthplace of Henry V, where their exploits are remembered in Monmouth's Agincourt Square - as well as a stained glass window in Brecon Cathedral.


To mark the 600th anniversary of the battle, throughout 2015 a group of enthusiasts from around Brecon and Monmouthshire have been staging a series of events to explain this unlikely medieval alliance.

Bryan Davies, the organiser of Agincourt 600 Wales - Cymru, has been fascinated with the competing folklores ever since he saw the Agincourt roll of honour at Brecon Cathedral as a boy.

"Even then I remember wondering why so many Welshmen from these small towns and villages strung out along what would eventually become the A40 went to fight in an English army; especially considering that this was all taking place at the same time as Owain Glyndwr's rebellion," he said.

"The biggest draw - then as now - was money. A longbowman could earn sixpence a day while a ploughman made twopence.

"But also some owed loyalty to Norman Marcher lords, while others signed up to make amends for having backed the wrong side after Glyndwr's rebellion failed."

Yet Swansea University's Welsh historian, Dr Matthew Stevens, believes that perhaps the English and Welsh were not ever such strange bed-fellows after all.

"Glyndwr's rebellion really had its popular support in north Wales," he said.

"When he marched south he burnt-out as many Welshmen as he did Norman settlers.

"But even going back as far as Edward I's reign, Welsh archers were an integral part of English armies. In 1298, just 16 years after Wales was conquered, they were present in numbers at the Battle of Falkirk.

"It's wrong really to think of a national Welsh identity at this time.

"People had much more of a sense of local loyalty, and whether it be a Welsh prince or a Marcher lord, men in south Wales were far more likely to stay loyal to the person on whom they depended for their own prosperity."

But if the reasons for why Welshmen fought for an English king are clear, it's harder to explain how they became so skilled with the longbow in the first place.

Although Dr Stevens thinks he might have an idea.

"As early as 1283 Gerald of Wales describes the men of Gwent as being highly skilled longbowmen, and to understand why perhaps you have to look at the natural resources available to them," he added.

"It seems strange considering the metal industries of the 19th and 20th centuries, but at the time of Agincourt there was actually a major shortage of iron in south Wales.

"Whilst a suit of armour and heavy swords would have to be forged at great expense, from iron imported from Spain, arrows and spears only required a tiny metal point."

[Cymro]

Wasn't it true that Henry III made it law that all English males over the age of 14 had to carry out two hours of longbow practice a week as part of their training for war?

IIRC the Welsh were of a shorter, stockier breed, better able to draw a war bow (I used to be interested in archery 50 years ago and did quite a bit of research) so perhaps that was a factor in their success? Again, from my research I seem to recall that the Welsh invented the bodkin point for their arrows - it was a 4" long tapered square point which could burst chain mail and penetrate armour - the armour-piercing rounds of their day.

The opposition were also using crossbows, which although easier to sight and fire, took longer to re-load and lacked the range of the longbow which was used to fire volleys rather than at individual targets.

[Chef Geoff]

In tests archers weren't that effective against 15th century plate armour but they were devastating against horses and consequently the contemporary reports of the battle state that "men were killed by their own horses". It was Edward III who issued the law making archery practice compulsory and  “forbade, on pain of death, all sport that took up time better spent on war training especially archery practise” (they obviously thought football was for puffs even then ). it had been a "Welsh weapon" long before it became known as the English longbow with the Welsh meating out justice against the the armies of Edward I and it was this that seams to have given rise, a bit like the Gurkhas centuries later, to the Welsh being used in the Kings army and not to sure on stature as the bows were thought to be over 6 and a half foot long with skeletons thought to belong to archers being pretty tall individuals for the time.

[Cymro]

Told you I was no historian - I already knew that a law was made regarding the archery practice but didn't know when. You know the saying that 'Google is your friend?' They lied. I looked it up this morning and it told me it was Henry III . . .

Regarding the 6' 6" bow - unless the archer was shorter  than 3' 3" it probably wouldn't be a problem. I remember that one limb of the bow is slightly longer than the other but can't recall which. Even if the lower limb was longer than the upper it only has to clear the ground - and if you're shooting volleys you're aiming upwards anyway . . .

[Resurgam]

              I understand that serendipity also played a part in the victory. Heavy rain had made the ground underfoot boggy and unsuitable for a heavy horse charge. Not to mention the arrogance of the French noblemen!

              Mind you the French have never liked us very much. Perhaps because we sank their fleet........"twice"!

[Chef Geoff]

It wasn't so much arrogance as we broke the rules on who could do what, I mean it just wasn't cricket letting a load of grubby peasants kill nights We may have sunk their fleet....twice but if you tally up the wins and losses on England vs France in warfare I'm afraid France is ahead by about 3 to 1
The French did the same to us 35 years latter at the Battle of Formigny

[Chef Geoff]

Cymro your right about a law being passed by Henry II about bows but also about all other weapons too it was the "Assize of Arms of 1181" which compelled all freeman to possess arms for the Kings service and many of these would have chosen the bow as it was the cheapest.

[Cymro]

Just found a couple of references to the bodkin point arrows:

 Hunting with the Bow and Arrow, by Saxton Pope. https://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/8hbow10.txt "To test a steel bodkin pointed arrow such as was used at the battle of Cressy, I borrowed a shirt of chain armour from the Museum, a beautiful specimen made in Damascus in the 15th Century. It weighed twenty-five pounds and was in perfect condition. One of the attendants in the Museum offered to put it on and allow me to shoot at him. Fortunately, I declined his proffered services and put it on a wooden box, padded with burlap to represent clothing. Indoors at a distance of seven yards, I discharged an arrow at it with such force that sparks flew from the links of steel as from a forge. The bodkin point and shaft went through the thickest portion of the back, penetrated an inch of wood and bulged out the opposite side of the armour shirt. The attendant turned a pale green. An arrow of this type can be shot about two hundred yards, and would be deadly up to the full limit of its flight."

 Strickland M, Hardy R. The Great Warbow. Sutton Publishing 2005. Pages 272–278: "even at a range of 240 yards heavy war arrows shot from bows of poundages in the mid- to upper range possessed by the Mary Rose bows would have been capable of killing or severely wounding men equipped with armour of wrought iron. Higher-quality armour of steel would have given considerably greater protection, which accords well with the experience of Oxford's men against the elite French vanguard at Poitiers in 1356, and des Ursin's statement that the French knights of the first ranks at Agincourt, which included some of the most important (and thus best-equipped) nobles, remained comparatively unhurt by the English arrows."

I hadn't seen these before, but I remember from 50-odd years that there was a passage in one book referring to an arrow with a bodkin point passing through a 4" thick oak door - don't think it mentioned the range.

The technology was changing even then, from using wrought iron to the use of steel for the knights' armour.

[Resurgam]

As an aside; is it true that hunting with a bow is now banned in the UK?

[Cymro]

Yes, it is. So sayeth Google - and we all know how accurate that is . . .

I had to look it up; apparently it was banned in 1963, just about the time I was probably most interested in archery.

In about 1977 I bought a crossbow from a gun shop with the intention of using it for hunting - the guy in the shop recommended rubber 'blunt' tips to impart maximum shock to the quarry, but must have forgotten to tell me that it was illegal to use the bow for that purpose. Didn't matter anyway; I never managed to hit anything with it!

Sorry to get so far OT.

[dingdong]

Hi Cymro, when I was in my early teens I made a cross bow,easy to make a basic bow.the wood work was the easiest,trigger mechanism OK,but the hardest bit was the bow,which I fashioned out of a leaf spring off an old Austin Seven,it took ages,it worked well,so well in fact it was confiscated by the local BOBBY never to be seen again!!!!.....caw,those were the days!!  👍

[hotmill]

I think troops from North Wales were mostly 'spearmen' and the west and South were archers. I did read somewhere that the Welsh bows were shorter than the English Longbows and were often quite rough when compared to the sleek English bows but powerful weapons none the less.

[Cymro]

Hi Cymro, when I was in my early teens I made a cross bow,easy to make a basic bow.the wood work was the easiest,trigger mechanism OK,but the hardest bit was the bow,which I fashioned out of a leaf spring off an old Austin Seven,it took ages,it worked well,so well in fact it was confiscated by the local BOBBY never to be seen again!!!!.....caw,those were the days!!  👍

Happy days!